NYU/Columbia ($190k debt) vs. U of MN ($0 debt) for PI Forum

[Shaggier1]

Since you sound deadset on PI, then I would definitely vote NYU.

This really depends on your appetite for spending a few years in biglaw. The debt can be crushing. LRAP/IBR are not as simple as they seem. If I was in this position, I would take the money and run. Then I'd work my ass off at Minnesota.

But that depends on where you want to live (are you comfortable staying in MN?) and exactly what type of PI work you want to do (do you want to work at the local public defender or do you want to be the lead appellate counsel for the ACLU?).

Just do not take the debt lightly. People are so quick so say "Oh, just work in biglaw" (as if that is not often soul-crushing) or "just LRAP it!" (as if those programs are not susceptible to change and as if you don't have your freedom severely limited by the debt in the meantime).

Debt freedom is a beautiful thing. And Minnesota is a good law school.

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Also, try super hard to leverage the scholly at top schools in the midwest (i.e., Michigan)

[lecsa]

It seems like OP is headstrong about going to NYU/CLS even though she wants PI.

I think it's stupid considering most PI is not prestige-oriented, but it's up to OP to learn the fault of her own ways.

Taking that into account, my advice is go ahead and get into 200k debt. Just don't come back to us complaining when you realize what a stupid mistake it was and you're living on less than non-legal PI people do. We warned you.

Just to clarify, I am not headstrong about going to NYU/CLS. I am strongly considering the U of MN. Both the U of MN route and the NYU/CLS route have drawbacks and advantages. I am investigating all of my options as thoroughly as possible, particularly since people have strongly advised me both ways. The more information, data, reasoning, etc. that is provided alongside that advice, the more helpful that advice is to me.

I am carefully considering all advice and information. Thank you to everyone who has been generous with their time and help!

My opinion is to not get into debt at all if you want PI. I am not in PI, but I have friends (all T-14 grads) who are in NYC PI and they all tell me to avoid debt if you want to go the PI route.

They weren't gunning for 'prestigious PI' but your odds of getting that are slim to none anyway, so I would make your decision based on general PI hiring. As for regular PI, it doesn't seem that prestige-oriented. For instance, one friend is working at a PI org in NYC and half the grads are from NYU, Michigan, and Georgetown, and the other half are from CUNY and other third tier law schools. These people were mainly hired after working there for free after graduation, so you have to consider if that's feasible for you as well since a lot of PI orgs don't hire until after graduation.

None of my friends in PI have law school loans since their parents are rich, but they told me they would have taken larger scholarships elsewhere if they had to choose again since PI hiring in general has little to do with prestige of your school and this way they wouldn't have spent their parents' money (which is effectively cutting into your inheritance).

A lot of these PI orgs are experiencing funding issues too, so your job security is probably worse than in biglaw. You might have a job based on a grant for a couple of years and then not have a job or have your salary cut the following year because government funding and donations have declined.

Obviously if you want "prestigious PI" your odds out of MN are probably very slim if non-existent. But your odds coming out of a T-14 are slim too so I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket. I just think taking on 200k debt for a shot in the dark is a stupid idea, especially since you probably won't like the day-to-day tasks that you have to do as a PI attorney anyway. I'm not sure how much experience you have with the actual practice of law - but getting into 200k debt for a low paying job that you might get and is probably boring is stupid to me.

[Ohiobumpkin]

Yeah, I would take the money and run. Being in that much debt with biglaw salary is hard enough. Doing PI and having that debt, even with some IBR or similar program, sounds terrifying.

[matilda0401]

Considering you're midwest-oriented but somewhat prestigious PI-centric goals, I'm actually reconsidering Michigan here. Have you been able to speak with impartial current students at UMN about impact litigation opportunities and how successful grads are at navigating a competitive public interest market?

Interesting point, though I am actually not midwest-oriented. I just currently live/work in Minneapolis and I don't mind it for now, but I really want to have opportunities outside of it after graduation. I have spoken to 3 U of MN PI-oriented recent graduates who I know personally (not admissions reps), and they all said that I would likely have various kinds of post-grad PI opportunities in Minnesota, but that it is harder to secure opportunities elsewhere (not impossible, but harder).

Do you think that a total difference in cost of ~$40,000 would really make Michigan a better choice than NYU (given that I am not in fact midwest-oriented)? It seems to me that NYU's more generous/secure LRAP and the vast networking/externship opportunities in NYC are significant factors.

[jbagelboy]

Considering you're midwest-oriented but somewhat prestigious PI-centric goals, I'm actually reconsidering Michigan here. Have you been able to speak with impartial current students at UMN about impact litigation opportunities and how successful grads are at navigating a competitive public interest market?

Interesting point, though I am actually not midwest-oriented. I just currently live/work in Minneapolis and I don't mind it for now, but I really want to have opportunities outside of it after graduation. I have spoken to 3 U of MN PI-oriented recent graduates who I know personally (not admissions reps), and they all said that I would likely have various kinds of post-grad PI opportunities in Minnesota, but that it is harder to secure opportunities elsewhere (not impossible, but harder).

Do you think that a total difference in cost of ~$40,000 would really make Michigan a better choice than NYU (given that I am not in fact midwest-oriented)? It seems to me that NYU's more generous/secure LRAP and the vast networking/externship opportunities in NYC are significant factors.

I just think that while NYU is definitely dominant of your options in public interest all things considered, it's a very New York centered school. Fortunately for NYU, that's great because New York is still the center of the global legal economy and the base of operations of most private and public sector legal organizations alike.

I'm only gathering you are "midwest oriented" because regardless of your stated preferences, even considering UMN over a school like Columbia means you're at minimum contended to stay in the region, which is far more than I can say for most of my friends who attend elite coastal UG's and law schools in large part to avoid having to return to/reside in the midwest. You've sufficiently manifested a connection to the region despite your protestations to the contrary.

The University of Michigan, for better or worse and as much as it is trashed on this site, commands a great deal of respect and deference in the great lakes states and upper midwest. It straddles the benefits of Minnesota and NYU. A few other factors militate in favor of Michigan to me in this scenario.
1) As others have alluded to, local PI (and by this I mean city/state gov, legal aid, and regional offices of nationwide impact lit orgs) is more about connections and on the ground network than university prestige. Michigan provides all the "prestige" you would need for any midwestern market, without sacrificing the distance one of the elite new york schools would necessarily entail for your job search.
2) Michigan certainly doesn't force you to bow out of a New York job search - which Minnesota necessarily would - but it also opens up markets that you might need to pursue your specialized goals, and by specialized, I mean not big law or federal gov't. These markets include chicago, the twin cities (where michigan remains a strong brand), detroit, and other shit.
3) Your debt from michigan will be substantially less than NYU due to higher scholarship, lower tuition, and cost of living adjustments. Lower debt = more flexibility generally
4) Michigan has a strong PI network and support than some other T14's, albeit not as strong as NYU, but see discussion supra.

Risk of Michigan is a higher chance of striking out of any decent legal work.

If you want New York, then NYU would be an incredibly easy decision. The fact that you're still laboring over this implies otherwise.