Miami Law vs. UC Hastings Law Forum

IggyLoyola · Post by **IggyLoyola** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:49 pm

Poll above.

BigZuck · Post by **BigZuck** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:55 pm

I don't know what government relations are but neither will get you a job in DC. I wouldn't do either at current prices (even paying some out of pocket means that money goes away and can't be put to a better use)

I would focus on the retake and reapply to DC schools next year or retake and readjust career goals.

TheSpanishMain · Post by **TheSpanishMain** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:04 pm

How did you pick these two very random schools?

Anywhere, neither will get you to DC.

Young Marino · Post by **Young Marino** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:11 pm

You should reach out to one of the coordinators in the U of Miami recruitment/admissions office. There was once a time when I considered working in DC and they sent an email with a list of DC alumni and contact info for them. Most if not all UM alumni are extremely pleased to help you out in any way they can. As matter of fact, if you look at the recent ABA stats for the last three or four graduating classes, you will see that DC was the second most placed destination for grads a few times. Granted, they only place between 15-35 grads a year in DC but it's not impossible to get a job there from U of Miami. So join me at the U! I would suggest that anything TLS says about U of Miami you take as bullshit 90% of the time because this forum is full of "t14 or bust" prestige whores

Mack.Hambleton · Post by **Mack.Hambleton** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:26 pm

retake

californiauser · Post by **californiauser** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:27 pm

Hastings isn't even worth attending at 0 cost of attendance. Easily one of the worst value law schools in the country

Retake is the credited response

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:29 pm

Nucky · Post by **Nucky** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:35 pm

Young Marino wrote:You should reach out to one of the coordinators in the U of Miami recruitment/admissions office. There was once a time when I considered working in DC and they sent an email with a list of DC alumni and contact info for them. Most if not all UM alumni are extremely pleased to help you out in any way they can. As matter of fact, if you look at the recent ABA stats for the last three or four graduating classes, you will see that DC was the second most placed destination for grads a few times. Granted, they only place between 15-35 grads a year in DC but it's not impossible to get a job there from U of Miami. So join me at the U! I would suggest that anything TLS says about U of Miami you take as bullshit 90% of the time because this forum is full of "t14 or bust" prestige whores

Mack.Hambleton · Post by **Mack.Hambleton** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:40 pm

Young Marino wrote:You should reach out to one of the coordinators in the U of Miami recruitment/admissions office. There was once a time when I considered working in DC and they sent an email with a list of DC alumni and contact info for them. Most if not all UM alumni are extremely pleased to help you out in any way they can. As matter of fact, if you look at the recent ABA stats for the last three or four graduating classes, you will see that DC was the second most placed destination for grads a few times. Granted, they only place between 15-35 grads a year in DC but it's not impossible to get a job there from U of Miami. So join me at the U! I would suggest that anything TLS says about U of Miami you take as bullshit 90% of the time because this forum is full of "t14 or bust" prestige whores

*this forum is full of "getting a job or bust" prestige whores

FTFY

Young Marino · Post by **Young Marino** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:45 pm

james.bungles wrote:
Young Marino wrote:You should reach out to one of the coordinators in the U of Miami recruitment/admissions office. There was once a time when I considered working in DC and they sent an email with a list of DC alumni and contact info for them. Most if not all UM alumni are extremely pleased to help you out in any way they can. As matter of fact, if you look at the recent ABA stats for the last three or four graduating classes, you will see that DC was the second most placed destination for grads a few times. Granted, they only place between 15-35 grads a year in DC but it's not impossible to get a job there from U of Miami. So join me at the U! I would suggest that anything TLS says about U of Miami you take as bullshit 90% of the time because this forum is full of "t14 or bust" prestige whores
*this forum is full of "getting a job or bust" prestige whores

FTFY

Well that's the end game of law school isn't it? U of Miami is on the ATL rankings of 50 schools based solely on employment outcomes my friend. The alumni network is amazing. But again, it's not anything t14 or bust prestige whores would know by looking at the shit that is US News rankings

Mack.Hambleton · Post by **Mack.Hambleton** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:47 pm

Young Marino wrote:
james.bungles wrote:
Young Marino wrote:You should reach out to one of the coordinators in the U of Miami recruitment/admissions office. There was once a time when I considered working in DC and they sent an email with a list of DC alumni and contact info for them. Most if not all UM alumni are extremely pleased to help you out in any way they can. As matter of fact, if you look at the recent ABA stats for the last three or four graduating classes, you will see that DC was the second most placed destination for grads a few times. Granted, they only place between 15-35 grads a year in DC but it's not impossible to get a job there from U of Miami. So join me at the U! I would suggest that anything TLS says about U of Miami you take as bullshit 90% of the time because this forum is full of "t14 or bust" prestige whores
*this forum is full of "getting a job or bust" prestige whores

FTFY
Well that's the end game of law school isn't it? U of Miami is on the ATL rankings of 50 schools based solely on employment outcomes my friend. The alumni network is amazing. But again, it's not anything t14 or bust prestige whores would know by looking at the shit that is US News rankings

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/miami/2013/

givemescholly · Post by **givemescholly** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:57 pm

rad lulz wrote:
IggyLoyola wrote:Deposit time.. thought I would get some outside advice.

1. University of Miami Law ($102,000 scholarship over 3 years), COA = $95,000, Potential Net Debt = $35,000 (After savings)
2. UC Hastings Law ($54,000 scholarship over 3 years), COA = $145,000, Potential Net Debt = $85,000 (After savings)

Career Goal: Government Relations, preferably in DC.

Wait-list: GULC, Emory, BC, BU, W&M

LSAT: Taken once, 162. Taking again in June. Any advice would be welcome. (Note: I'm asking between UM & UC Hastings here)
Both those schools are shit for your goals

Hastings is just shit

Retake or don't go

I'm not advocating for Hastings in any way; really just curious to pick your brain to understand your perspective. Hastings has a USNWR ranking of 54. Not stellar but that doesn't seem terrible. Yes, USNWR isn't the best metric but its one simple number that will make asking and answering my question a little easier. What is the lowest ranked school that you don't consider to be shit? (Unless there's a special reason Hastings in particular is shit. I'd be curious to hear it, if that's the case.)

raininthedesert · Post by **raininthedesert** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:59 pm

The post that neither school will take you to D.C. is inaccurate. Miami Law has a D.C. externship program and a substantial number of alumni working in that city -- like many schools. Is Miami Law your best choice for ensuring that you end up in D.C. compared to Georgetown, GWU, or American? No. But Miami would be much better than Hastings for your goals and in taking that exceptional scholarship you would need to hustle by securing externships during the school year in Miami with D.C. connected agencies, etc. and during the summer by leveraging their Public Interest program through which Miami Law pays you to be placed at any number of top agencies in D.C. (and the agencies love that because they don't have to pay you). You should also consider spending your third year in D.C. as a visiting student.

So Miami Law can and does get you to D.C. in comparison to Hastings. Whether or not you obtain the externships, the D.C. placement, etc. is far more dependent upon your performance and relationship-building than if you were already in school in the D.C. area during the school year. This is the same reason Miami Law has a huge advantage over any other school in the Miami market. The market is flooded with Miami grads and the school gives credit for working in externships at top agencies throughout the school year.

A retake to get you up to at least a 164 would get you into any of the schools you are waitlisted at including a scholarship at W&M -- which doesn't place that great in D.C. either without a lot of hustle.

As long as you know the risks and are open to staying in South Florida for the beginning part of your career if you don't get D.C., then Miami Law is an exceptional school with the scholarship dollars that you were offered.

McAvoy · Post by **McAvoy** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:01 pm

You don't need a law degree to work in government relations. You don't even need a law degree to work in a law firm's government relations practice. What do you want to do, specifically, in gov. relations that requires a JD?

These are poor options, and in particular poor options for your goals. I'd retake, but also reevaluate what you want to do and how you can get there most efficiently. Good luck in June!

McAvoy · Post by **McAvoy** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:03 pm

givemescholly wrote:
I'm not advocating for Hastings in any way; really just curious to pick your brain to understand your perspective. Hastings has a USNWR ranking of 54. Not stellar but that doesn't seem terrible. Yes, USNWR isn't the best metric but its one simple number that will make asking and answering my question a little easier. What is the lowest ranked school that you don't consider to be shit? (Unless there's a special reason Hastings in particular is shit. I'd be curious to hear it, if that's the case.)

Huh? It's total horse shit. Look at LST. USNWR means nothing at this level.

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:10 pm

givemescholly · Post by **givemescholly** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:26 pm

rad lulz wrote:
givemescholly wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
IggyLoyola wrote:Deposit time.. thought I would get some outside advice.

1. University of Miami Law ($102,000 scholarship over 3 years), COA = $95,000, Potential Net Debt = $35,000 (After savings)
2. UC Hastings Law ($54,000 scholarship over 3 years), COA = $145,000, Potential Net Debt = $85,000 (After savings)

Career Goal: Government Relations, preferably in DC.

Wait-list: GULC, Emory, BC, BU, W&M

LSAT: Taken once, 162. Taking again in June. Any advice would be welcome. (Note: I'm asking between UM & UC Hastings here)
Both those schools are shit for your goals

Hastings is just shit

Retake or don't go
I'm not advocating for Hastings in any way; really just curious to pick your brain to understand your perspective. Hastings has a USNWR ranking of 54. Not stellar but that doesn't seem terrible. Yes, USNWR isn't the best metric but its one simple number that will make asking and answering my question a little easier. What is the lowest ranked school that you don't consider to be shit? (Unless there's a special reason Hastings in particular is shit. I'd be curious to hear it, if that's the case.)
USNWR rankings = utter shit and completely worthless in light of actual LST data on employment outcomes

Ok, let me ask a different way then -- and look, if you aren't game to answer, no big deal. I'm just curious, making conversation, and informing my own choice. What is your employment statistics threshold for "shit?"

I get that relative to many (many) other schools, Hastings is definitely shitty (I see that emp% now - ouch). But there are a LOT of people who can't get into amazing schools with amazing stats, no matter how many times they retake the LSAT. Splitters like me can't go back in time and fuck up less as an undergrad, for example. When you start weighing the other factors that might make a school desirable (location, intriguing clinics, scholarships, debt) where do you draw the line with employment stats? Or should it be 100%, the deciding factor, go to the place with the best stats you can manage?

Paul Campos · Post by **Paul Campos** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:47 pm

I'm not advocating for Hastings in any way; really just curious to pick your brain to understand your perspective. Hastings has a USNWR ranking of 54. Not stellar but that doesn't seem terrible. Yes, USNWR isn't the best metric but its one simple number that will make asking and answering my question a little easier. What is the lowest ranked school that you don't consider to be shit? (Unless there's a special reason Hastings in particular is shit. I'd be curious to hear it, if that's the case.)

USNWR rankings = utter shit and completely worthless in light of actual LST data on employment outcomes

Ok, let me ask a different way then -- and look, if you aren't game to answer, no big deal. I'm just curious, making conversation, and informing my own choice. What is your employment statistics threshold for "shit?"

I get that relative to many (many) other schools, Hastings is definitely shitty (I see that emp% now - ouch). But there are a LOT of people who can't get into amazing schools with amazing stats, no matter how many times they retake the LSAT. Splitters like me can't go back in time and fuck up less as an undergrad, for example. When you start weighing the other factors that might make a school desirable (location, intriguing clinics, scholarships, debt) where do you draw the line with employment stats? Or should it be 100%, the deciding factor, go to the place with the best stats you can manage?

It's a question of risk management. Places like Hastings and American are especially bad gambles because they feature the same tuition rates as the T-14 (American, absurdly enough, has higher effective tuition that almost all of the T-14 because it offers so little in the way of discounts), extremely high cost of living -- you'll rack up close to $100,000 in debt just from living expenses alone at these places -- and employment prospects that for 90% of the class are basically indistinguishable from those at bottom tier schools.

There are many schools that feature much lower costs and better employment statistics than Hastings et al, and that are actually easier to get into, especially if you have a good LSAT score, which, unlike a UGPA, is something that can be fixed. If you can't get a good enough LSAT score to go to a decent school at a decent price then you shouldn't go to law school.

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:11 pm

Campos basically took the words outa my mouth

BigZuck · Post by **BigZuck** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:23 pm

rad lulz wrote:Campos basically took the words outa my mouth

Yeah, I mean, I think his last sentence might have been the best. No one has to go. If someone isn't qualified (and by that I mean doesn't have the right combination of numbers to make the debt reasonable at a reasonable school) then he doesn't have to go. So many people treat it as if going to law school was some fundamental right. No, it's not. I'd love to be an NBA basketball player but I'm too slow, fat, and I suck at sports so that dream was put to rest long ago.

As for Miami being ok if you want DC- if all that DC externships stuff isn't just marketing fluff, I guess maybe? There's been a weird pro-Miami vibe vibing around this board lately, largely discussing some unparalleled "alumni network" and maybe that crap is true but why aren't its employment stats bearing this out? It's a big school so maybe there are a lot of grads working as lawyers but there's also a lot of people getting irreparably boned by attending. I'm not buying it myself but whatever rustles your Jimmy Johnsons, you Miami lovers.

dd235 · Post by **dd235** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:30 pm

Its also important to note the trend... Hastings went from a 46.3% employment score in 2012 to 41.6% employment score in 2013. If they had jumped 10% from 2012 to 2013 you could at least make the point that they are moving in the right direction. They did the complete opposite, however. You might say “oh well that means theres a 40% chance of obtaining a full-time legal job out of UC Hastings.” Wrong. Take into account the students who have guaranteed jobs lined up and the students who majored in attractive STEM majors for IP (of which Hastings attracts a lot) and your chances as an average joe are substantially lower.

Also, as others have brought up they are one of the more expensive law schools and also one of the stingiest in awarding scholarships which means that almost everyone who goes is stuck with at least 200k in debt. I think this has a lot to do with the fact that they are an independent law school that can’t rely on an undergrad university to foot some of the costs.

Combine this with the fact that they are located in one of the hardest cities to land a job in, with direct competition with Stanford, Berkeley, Davis, Santa Clara, USF, University of the Pacific, Golden State and a lot of students from UCLA, USC, and the Top 14.

Fun Fact: They are 1 of 30 schools that had more underemployed and non-employed graduates than graduates employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs.

In short, from this info you can conclude it is not a wise choice to attend UC Hastings.

I am going to go out on a limb and predict that they drop about 30 spots in the ranking next year.

IggyLoyola · Post by **IggyLoyola** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:02 am

jk148706 · Post by **jk148706** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:36 am

IggyLoyola wrote:Thanks everyone for the answers. By everyone I mean: dd235, raininthedesert, people who actually considered the question. Yeah, if I score >4 points higher on the June LSAT (166+), I may reconsider holding out for next cycle.. or see if i get off the Preferred Waitlist at GULC or one of the other schools. The point of the question was: I want to make a single deposit now. (Monday deadline)

Why these two schools specifically?
Family is from NorCal, have connections there.
At UM, the Miami Scholars Program and scholarship is pretty nice.. Tuition after the scholarship is ~$5,000/semester pretty much. They also pay Miami Scholars $5,000 during their 1L summer for any job scored in public service/interest, advocacy being one of them.

I'll probably wait until the end of today.. but it sounds like Miami Law is the move here.

Lots of ppl answered the question. You just didn't like the answer. Deposit at neither.

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:26 am

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:39 am

raininthedesert wrote:So Miami Law can and does get you to D.C. in comparison to Hastings. Whether or not you obtain the externships, the D.C. placement, etc. is far more dependent upon your performance and relationship-building than if you were already in school in the D.C. area during the school year. This is the same reason Miami Law has a huge advantage over any other school in the Miami market. The market is flooded with Miami grads and the school gives credit for working in externships at top agencies throughout the school year.

Are there schools that don't give credit for externing with federal (or state) agencies during the school year? I thought this was pretty common.

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