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Ok everyone, I need your help (and potentially some very tough love)

My heart is set on Columbia and has been all cycle. I've been given half tuition.
Chicago gave me a Ruby.

With the deadline approaching I'm starting to have second thoughts about taking on about 150,000 in debt to go to Columbia, though I want to live and work in NYC after law school.

My question is, is there enough of a difference (or any difference at all) between job prospects in NYC coming from Chicago vs Columbia to justify taking on that kind of debt????

canes14 wrote:Ok everyone, I need your help (and potentially some very tough love)

My heart is set on Columbia and has been all cycle. I've been given half tuition.
Chicago gave me a Ruby.

With the deadline approaching I'm starting to have second thoughts about taking on about 150,000 in debt to go to Columbia, though I want to live and work in NYC after law school.

My question is, is there enough of a difference (or any difference at all) between job prospects in NYC coming from Chicago vs Columbia to justify taking on that kind of debt????

Take the Ruby. You'll enjoy NYC after you graduate much more without any debt.

canes14 wrote:Ok everyone, I need your help (and potentially some very tough love)

My heart is set on Columbia and has been all cycle. I've been given half tuition.
Chicago gave me a Ruby.

With the deadline approaching I'm starting to have second thoughts about taking on about 150,000 in debt to go to Columbia, though I want to live and work in NYC after law school.

My question is, is there enough of a difference (or any difference at all) between job prospects in NYC coming from Chicago vs Columbia to justify taking on that kind of debt????

Ruby, hands down. Chicago places remarkably well in NYC -- particularly given the fact that only about 35-45 students in any given 2L class want to be in New York anyway. The plurality of 2L's from the class of 2015 that are going to NYC will be V10 (if not V5). Congrats!

Also, negotiate.

Congrats on two incredible options. Have you taken your Ruby to CLS to negotiate?

I'd be shocked if Columbia doesn't come back with full tuition if that's where you really want to be. As of now its an incredibly easy choice. Without HYS on the table Ruby is unanimously the best possible outcome.

aboutmydaylight wrote:I'd be shocked if Columbia doesn't come back with full tuition if that's where you really want to be. As of now its an incredibly easy choice. Without HYS on the table Ruby is unanimously the best possible outcome.

Even if Columbia does give a full ride, the Ruby comes with the 15k stipend and COL is lower in Hyde Park than NYC. Columbia is not worth $45k+ more than Chicago for NYC biglaw.

Thanks everyone!

I sent an appeal email to Columbia today, but I don't realistically expect them to come back with full tuition (though that would make me incredibly happy ).

I guess my issue is mostly that I haven't done much research on Chicago because I wasn't seriously considering it until I realized my financial position, but it sounds like employment prospects in NY aren't much of a problem.

Does anyone have any insight as to how difficult it would be to find summer employment in NYC? Or how helpful the school is in getting out of state positions? This is such a first world problem, but I just never saw myself in the midwest...haha

canes14 wrote:Thanks everyone!

I sent an appeal email to Columbia today, but I don't realistically expect them to come back with full tuition (though that would make me incredibly happy ).

I guess my issue is mostly that I haven't done much research on Chicago because I wasn't seriously considering it until I realized my financial position, but it sounds like employment prospects in NY aren't much of a problem.

Does anyone have any insight as to how difficult it would be to find summer employment in NYC? Or how helpful the school is in getting out of state positions? This is such a first world problem, but I just never saw myself in the midwest...haha

Almost every NYC law firm worth going to as a 2L summer comes to UChicago for OCI. We have a loyal (though obviously smaller than in Chicago) alumni base in Manhattan. Honestly bidding straight NYC, for the average UChicago 2L, probably produces the highest expectation of OCI success.

Edit: Obviously bidding straight NYC at most of the T14 produces the best outcome. My point is to say that getting NYC biglaw, particularly v20 firms, is as easy, if not easier (because of the small numbers game) at Chicago as it is at Columbia.

Definitely Chicago

gchatbrah wrote:

canes14 wrote:Thanks everyone!

I sent an appeal email to Columbia today, but I don't realistically expect them to come back with full tuition (though that would make me incredibly happy ).

I guess my issue is mostly that I haven't done much research on Chicago because I wasn't seriously considering it until I realized my financial position, but it sounds like employment prospects in NY aren't much of a problem.

Does anyone have any insight as to how difficult it would be to find summer employment in NYC? Or how helpful the school is in getting out of state positions? This is such a first world problem, but I just never saw myself in the midwest...haha

Almost every NYC law firm worth going to as a 2L summer comes to UChicago for OCI. We have a loyal (though obviously smaller than in Chicago) alumni base in Manhattan. Honestly bidding straight NYC, for the average UChicago 2L, probably produces the highest expectation of OCI success.

Edit: Obviously bidding straight NYC at most of the T14 produces the best outcome. My point is to say that getting NYC biglaw, particularly v20 firms, is as easy, if not easier (because of the small numbers game) at Chicago as it is at Columbia.

In case anyone wants numbers to back this up:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 0#p7606908

Enjoy the Ruby. It's an amazing outcome.

Thanks everybody! It's really starting to look like I should take the money and run...haha

Yes. You most certainly should. PM me if you want the perspective of a native NYCer who went to Chicago.

Ruby > Hamilton anyway

...

With regards to negotiating: Columbia has never negotiated up to a Hamilton. And they've never even given anyone anything in between a Butler and a Hamilton. That's just how they operate.

Lavitz wrote:With regards to negotiating: Columbia has never negotiated up to a Hamilton. And they've never even given anyone anything in between a Butler and a Hamilton. That's just how they operate.

Do you have a source on this? I seem to remember posts where people got non-named schollys in between 50 and 100% tuition.

aboutmydaylight wrote:

Lavitz wrote:With regards to negotiating: Columbia has never negotiated up to a Hamilton. And they've never even given anyone anything in between a Butler and a Hamilton. That's just how they operate.

Do you have a source on this? I seem to remember posts where people got non-named schollys in between 50 and 100% tuition.

You can look at LSN and sort by $$$. Never anything in between half and full.

And my source for the no negotiating is --besides complete absence of evidence-- a poster from last cycle who received neither a Hamilton nor a Butler, tried to use a Ruby to negotiate up to either, and was explicitly told they didn't negotiate the named scholarships.

Lavitz wrote:

aboutmydaylight wrote:

Lavitz wrote:With regards to negotiating: Columbia has never negotiated up to a Hamilton. And they've never even given anyone anything in between a Butler and a Hamilton. That's just how they operate.

Do you have a source on this? I seem to remember posts where people got non-named schollys in between 50 and 100% tuition.

You can look at LSN and sort by $$$. Never anything in between half and full.

And my source for the no negotiating is --besides complete absence of evidence-- a poster from last cycle who received neither a Hamilton nor a Butler, tried to use a Ruby to negotiate up to either, and was explicitly told they didn't negotiate the named scholarships.

I wasn't given a Butler, but they did give me a 90K "tuition grant." Based on what you're saying, do you think this is my cap?

canes14 wrote:

Lavitz wrote:

aboutmydaylight wrote:

Lavitz wrote:With regards to negotiating: Columbia has never negotiated up to a Hamilton. And they've never even given anyone anything in between a Butler and a Hamilton. That's just how they operate.

Do you have a source on this? I seem to remember posts where people got non-named schollys in between 50 and 100% tuition.

You can look at LSN and sort by $$$. Never anything in between half and full.

And my source for the no negotiating is --besides complete absence of evidence-- a poster from last cycle who received neither a Hamilton nor a Butler, tried to use a Ruby to negotiate up to either, and was explicitly told they didn't negotiate the named scholarships.

I wasn't given a Butler, but they did give me a 90K "tuition grant." Based on what you're saying, do you think this is my cap?

That would jive with my experience last year. Informal conversation led me to believe they weren't going to budge from 85k grant, also non-Butler. Didn't try to formally negotiate, though.

manu6926 wrote:Why not negotiate with CLS?

I've heard from somewhere (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&start=25)
that in NYC biglaw, Columbia is the next best option after HY, even slightly better than Stanford.
So I don't think NYC biglaw prospects are equal for Columbia and Chicago.

But obviously debt sucks. So Ruby is the more financially sound option, but if your heart has been set on Columbia, choosing Columbia here would be understandable too.

Harvard, Columbia, Stanford, UChicago all "place" equally well into top firms. Columbia and Harvard have substantially higher #'s at V20's even adjusted for class size - and I think breaking it down, CLS actually takes the overall edge for top firms in terms of summer classes (although since most Yale students have their pick, they are kind of on a different level). It's just that many fewer SLS and Chi kids are targeting NYC than the Harvard and Columbia.

Anyway, OP: it would be objectively ridiculous to take Columbia over the Ruby here unless you have something else tying you to NYC. That being said, I disagree with other posters that the Rubenstein is superior to a full ride at CLS if you really want to be in New York.

Then again, half ride from Columbia is nothing to scoff at, and to be honest a lot of CLS students turn down $ at Chi or Penn to attend. I'm not going to advise you to make the choice to take Columbia here on it's face, but aside from what most of TLS will tell you, you wouldn't be alone in making it.

...

canes14 wrote:

Lavitz wrote:

aboutmydaylight wrote:

Lavitz wrote:With regards to negotiating: Columbia has never negotiated up to a Hamilton. And they've never even given anyone anything in between a Butler and a Hamilton. That's just how they operate.

Do you have a source on this? I seem to remember posts where people got non-named schollys in between 50 and 100% tuition.

You can look at LSN and sort by $$$. Never anything in between half and full.

And my source for the no negotiating is --besides complete absence of evidence-- a poster from last cycle who received neither a Hamilton nor a Butler, tried to use a Ruby to negotiate up to either, and was explicitly told they didn't negotiate the named scholarships.

I wasn't given a Butler, but they did give me a 90K "tuition grant." Based on what you're saying, do you think this is my cap?

Yes. They've given people $$ slightly less than the Butler before. Like $85K instead of 87.5K. This sounds like the same exact amount but without the name, which is weird, but I believe the same principle applies.

The one exception I've seen is where it's a small need-based addition: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/applemaroon

For what it's worth, I plan on working in NYC and I would have taken a Ruby over a Butler. I wouldn't mind living in Chicago for 3 years, and I wouldn't want to spend $100,000+ for whatever slim advantage Columbia may provide.

jbagelboy wrote: Anyway, OP: it would be objectively ridiculous to take Columbia over the Ruby here unless you have something else tying you to NYC. That being said, I disagree with other posters that the Rubenstein is superior to a full ride at CLS if you really want to be in New York.

Then again, half ride from Columbia is nothing to scoff at, and to be honest a lot of CLS students turn down $ at Chi or Penn to attend. I'm not going to advise you to make the choice to take Columbia here on it's face, but aside from what most of TLS will tell you, you wouldn't be alone in making it.

Ruby v. Hamilton is still hypothetical, and will probably remain that way. Not to be a homer, but given the BIG CoA difference between Ruby and 90k at CLS, I'd stick to the bolded.

Take it from someone who had basically the same grant last year (at CLS; didn't have a Ruby, sadly) - half-tuition scholarship at CLS leaves you around 190-200k debt at repayment, counting interest that will capitalize during law school. Ruby is ZERO debt, and chances are strong you'll end up in the same firm either way.

beepboopbeep wrote:

jbagelboy wrote: Anyway, OP: it would be objectively ridiculous to take Columbia over the Ruby here unless you have something else tying you to NYC. That being said, I disagree with other posters that the Rubenstein is superior to a full ride at CLS if you really want to be in New York.

Then again, half ride from Columbia is nothing to scoff at, and to be honest a lot of CLS students turn down $ at Chi or Penn to attend. I'm not going to advise you to make the choice to take Columbia here on it's face, but aside from what most of TLS will tell you, you wouldn't be alone in making it.

Ruby v. Hamilton is still hypothetical, and will probably remain that way. Not to be a homer, but given the BIG CoA difference between Ruby and 90k at CLS, I'd stick to the bolded.

Take it from someone who had basically the same grant last year (at CLS; didn't have a Ruby, sadly) - half-tuition scholarship at CLS leaves you around 190-200k debt at repayment, counting interest that will capitalize during law school. Ruby is ZERO debt, and chances are strong you'll end up in the same firm either way.

A Hamilton is definitely not happening haha. I sent off a hail mary negotiation email, but I'm not particularly hopeful.

I'm starting to come around to the idea that it would, in fact, be objectively ridiculous to turn down the Ruby. Reallllyyyy starting to wish I had booked a flight for this weekend's ASW. Looks like I'll be putting a deposit down sight unseen...

That being said, has anyone here visited both campuses? Thoughts?

manu6926 wrote: What I heard (if you bothered to click the link) was what some partners in NYC said about schools, assuming what the poster on that page (HLS20..something) said is true. I'd not draw conclusions about prospects based solely on figures.

But you would draw conclusions based on what some TLSer said three NYC partners said three years ago in reference to different schools than we're talking about here?

OP I'm just going to start messaging you re: the two schools, rather than clutter the thread