Top Law Schools

Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:49 pm**

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Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:53 pm**

For your stated goals, none of the above. They are all too expensive or provide a negligible shot at biglaw. Retake or rethink your goals.

Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:14 pm**

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Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:26 pm**

BC or WUSTL, but you should retake and get more money.

Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:32 pm**

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Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:10 pm**

The numbers you posted meaning nothing to us, please do what this thread asks you to do:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206299

Retake/reapply if you want big law, gunning for big law from any of these schools is a bad idea.

Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:45 pm**

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Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:04 pm**

This whole thing is just a mess. You're all over the map with regional schools but you prefer big law, would be ok with midlaw (what does that even mean?) and don't want small law. I mean, you'd be lucky to get small law from a place like Hastings. You also say you would be cool with PI which is a totally different track that requires commitment. You don't want to retake because you're overly anxious to hitch yourself up to a bunch of debt for so-so (at best) job prospects. You're too lazy to crunch some numbers and look at the actual debt you will be facing at graduation. You think PAYE (and its tax bomb) is something to rely on. You're considering LRAP from schools that have crappy or non-existent LRAP programs (not to mention PSLF might go away for good). And I'm guessing you're like 22.

This whole thing is just a train wreck. Please don't go to law school until you put some thought into this and figure out what this whole venture entails. I'm not saying that to be mean, I genuinely don't want you to ruin your life here.

Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:18 pm**

wheatbar wrote:I know that I want to be a lawyer and that I want to go to law school this year.

Do you? It seems like you'd be unhappy with anything that isn't biglaw or "junior biglaw" or a clerkship that would lead to biglaw. Would you be happy doing PI or med mal, writing wills, going to immigration hearings, trying misdemeanor cases, and other work that the majority of lawyers do on a daily basis?

Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:22 pm**

timbs4339 wrote:
wheatbar wrote:I know that I want to be a lawyer and that I want to go to law school this year.
Do you? It seems like you'd be unhappy with anything that isn't biglaw or "junior biglaw" or a clerkship that would lead to biglaw. Would you be happy doing PI or med mal, writing wills, going to immigration hearings, trying misdemeanor cases, and other work that the majority of lawyers do on a daily basis?

This. The fact is that these kinds of outcomes are highly likely coming out of the schools you have listed.

Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:36 pm**

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Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:39 pm**

Lets set aside the career goals for now

What's the total cost of attendance at each when you plugged the numbers into the Georgetown Law calculator?

Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:45 pm**

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Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:46 pm**

wheatbar wrote:
BigZuck wrote:This whole thing is just a mess. You're all over the map with regional schools but you prefer big law, would be ok with midlaw (what does that even mean?) and don't want small law. I mean, you'd be lucky to get small law from a place like Hastings. You also say you would be cool with PI which is a totally different track that requires commitment. You don't want to retake because you're overly anxious to hitch yourself up to a bunch of debt for so-so (at best) job prospects. You're too lazy to crunch some numbers and look at the actual debt you will be facing at graduation. You think PAYE (and its tax bomb) is something to rely on. You're considering LRAP from schools that have crappy or non-existent LRAP programs (not to mention PSLF might go away for good). And I'm guessing you're like 22.

This whole thing is just a train wreck. Please don't go to law school until you put some thought into this and figure out what this whole venture entails. I'm not saying that to be mean, I genuinely don't want you to ruin your life here.
What about it is a mess? Is it the fact that I'm looking at a large number of schools or just that I chose not to include COA numbers (which I did calculate already just chose not to use them - I wasn't too lazy!?)? Midlaw is a term I've seen used often and it just refers to midsized firms which I know there are fewer options for first-year hires but it does exist. I know that PI requires commitment but I think I will decide which route to pursue when I'm actually in law school which isn't that unusual, and I'm not anxious for debt but that is the reality for most law school graduates. With my GPA I would have needed a 170+ to get into a T-14 (esp. with $$$) and you do realize that only about 2% or so of LSAT takers achieve that right?

A retake would get you more money from your current schools at least.

He means it is a mess because you don't really know what you want to do and where you want to do it. PI is something that you have to be committed to basically from the time you start law school. Do more research on what these jobs entail. Right now the only school that is remotely worth going to at it is current price is WUSTL. If you only pay 8k in tuition I am assuming that's like 80some for COA. That's not terrible, but you shouldn't go to law school without at least a general idea of what you really want.

And debt should worry you. If you take on six figures of debt from these schools it will be hard to pay back without big law and only 1/4 of the students are getting those at BC, Fordham, GW and WUSTL. And Cardozo is only worthwhile if it is absolutely free.

Take some time and really think what you want to do with your law degree and retake the LSAT for more money

Edit: Saw WUSTL is only 8k scholarship. In that case you need to retake and don't go to any of them

Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:49 pm**

wheatbar wrote:I don't know where I expressed unhappiness with doing anything other than BIGLAW (maybe the small law comment?).

All the jobs you listed in the OP are all the kinds of jobs that are difficult to get. Obviously you didn't say only biglaw, but all the nonbiglaw options you listed are just as competitive.

wheatbar wrote:I understand that I don't have the best options for BIGLAW, but Fordham, GW, and BC in particular do place a significant percentage of their class in market paying firms every year - not students at the median I understand that but it is not impossible.

The most likely outcome from all of these schools is not ending up in biglaw. Statistically, if you went to one of these schools, you most likely would not end up in any of the jobs you listed in your OP. Why would you go to a school where, in all likelihood, you would not end up doing what you wanted to do?

wheatbar wrote:My major reason for starting off in BIGLAW is in fact because of my potential debt load not because it is the only type of work I would like to do with my law degree.

Then why not go to a lower ranked school for cheaper?

wheatbar wrote:I'm sorry if I offended anyone because I wasn't expecting this kind of negativity and vitriol I'm was just looking for help on which school choice would be my best option so picking a school and saying retake would be more helpful than just saying retake.

I don't think anybody here is truly vitriolic, more that you just seem to have expectations and goals that do not line up with the options you have.

Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:05 pm**

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Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:07 pm**

wheatbar wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
wheatbar wrote:I know that I want to be a lawyer and that I want to go to law school this year.
Do you? It seems like you'd be unhappy with anything that isn't biglaw or "junior biglaw" or a clerkship that would lead to biglaw. Would you be happy doing PI or med mal, writing wills, going to immigration hearings, trying misdemeanor cases, and other work that the majority of lawyers do on a daily basis?
I don't know where I expressed unhappiness with doing anything other than BIGLAW (maybe the small law comment?). I also don't know what I'm so ignorant about; I understand that I don't have the best options for BIGLAW, but Fordham, GW, and BC in particular do place a significant percentage of their class in market paying firms every year - not students at the median I understand that but it is not impossible. My major reason for starting off in BIGLAW is in fact because of my potential debt load not because it is the only type of work I would like to do with my law degree.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone because I wasn't expecting this kind of reaction I was just looking for help on which school choice would be my best option so picking a school and saying retake would be more helpful than just saying retake.

Thanks again

You didn't offend us, we're just trying to get you to think about the kind of careers that will probably be available to you, and whether you'd be happy devoting three years of your life and a not-insubstantial amount of debt if that's what you end up with. "Midlaw" so often is the applicant's way of saying "biglaw but with smaller clients, a slightly smaller paycheck, less hours, smaller firm, and better working environment" i.e. different in degree but not in kind. Not only do you have to understand that these jobs are very rare (much rarer than biglaw), small law is a very different beast in both degree and kind.

We're also not saying it's impossible to get the more selective or higher paying employment opportunities from any of these schools, just that it's necessary to really examine whether you'd accept doing family law for 55K in the Boston metro area, or making 47K as an entry-level public defender, or whether you would consider that a waste of three years.

Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:22 pm**

wheatbar wrote:So I have a lot of options this cycle and I'm trying to decide where to send my seat deposit. I'd greatly appreciate any advice on which school to pick.

I'd be happy with biglaw, fed clerkship, government/public interest with lrap but my preference would be biglaw (ok with midlaw not interested in small law). I have ties to SF and Philly but my preference would be NYC/LA/SF but I'm very open to other cities as well (not too picky on this). I'm not a big fan of Boston (though I'm not totally against the idea) but I'm concerned that that may be my best option and I should just gun for NYC jobs after law school.

Options:

Boston College - 15k/year scholarship (32K total tuition)
Fordham - sticker (50K total tuition)
George Washington U - 15k/year need-based aid (uncertain renewal) -> (37K total tuition for first year)
Cardozo - 45K/year scholarship (only 6K total tuition plus COL)
WUSTL - 8K/year scholarship (42K total tuition)
Temple U - 20k/year scholarship (13k total tuition)
*UC Hastings - 18k/year scholarship + in-state (30k total tuition) -> COL would be a lot less b/c I could live w/ family for free my 2nd & 3rd year (I plan to live on campus my first year if available)
Washington & Lee U - 18.5k/year scholarship (26k total tuition)
Howard - 20k/year scholarship (11k tuition but bad stips)
Rutgers - Newark - 12k/year scholarship + option for in-state (11k tuition)

I understand the answer may be retake but I'd prefer if you are to say retake to also suggest my best option this cycle because I plan to attend this year

Big Zuck and some others giving you some tough love in this thread, and you should listen to them. Temple, Rutgers and Cardozo are arguably not completely horrible choices at these prices (how's that for a ringing endorsement?) if you would truly be OK with being a small firm lawyer or (and it is or, not and/or) you're going to gun from Day One for government/PI work, and you're willing to take the risk of a non-negligible chance of a really bad outcome. The big ticket items on this list are all classic trap schools and should be complete non-starters for anyone who doesn't consider $200,000 walking around money.

Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:03 pm**

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Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:17 pm**

wheatbar wrote: I don't think Rutgers is a great option given the 3.0 GPA stipulation and the need to purchase a year long housing contract to get in-state status. I'm surprised by all of the votes Temple got over Cardozo. Cardozo is cheaper and I thought BIGLAW odds from both are very low but equal at about 1/10. Is there something I'm missing about career opportunities generally out of Temple?

Cardozo is going to be expensive to find housing near, COA will be high.

TO answer OP's question....
I know you don't want to hear this but based on cost and your stated goals you have no good or even decent options.
Everything here either saddles you with tons of debt for a moderate shot at jobs you want (though likely not in the markets you want).
Or offers you less debt and almost no shot at your goals.

Find a job, re-take, re-apply.
You didn't put your GPA and LSAT in the first post, but if you got into BC it can't be much below 3.0 GPA, if you get high 160s you'll be looking at more money from WUSTL for sure, and probably acceptances at schools that better fit your goals. 170+ opens up even more doors.

Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:46 pm**

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Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:57 pm**

I dont think you understand what 33% means..

It means three people are in a triangle. You all look at each other..only one of you is getting the golden ring. The other one will get small law and the other person will be in "business & industry" or unemployed.

You have a 67% chance of NOT getting it..meaning, most likely you will NOT get it. Therefore you must be ok with doing small law or dont go. And small law with GW levels debt, sheesh..

Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:06 pm**

wheatbar wrote:I updated my UC Hastings information if that changes things...

Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:11 pm**

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Posted: **Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:17 pm**

Some Stanford grads strike out and some TTTs strike it rich. But would you rather play Russian Roulette with 1 round in the revolver out of 6, or 4 out of 6? Think it through duder.

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