Top Law Schools

Northwestern-- 55k/year
CLS-- 40 k split between the three years
U Chicago- 30 k split between the three years

I know that a ton of people are going to say this isn't even close, but I do feel quite conflicted.

Interests: I want to do competitive/prestigious PI/government work (ACLU, federal gov., etc) and a clerkship hopefully. I'm concerned that I won't have the opportunities available to me graduating from Northwestern that I would from Columbia or Chicago.

Location: I'm from the Midwest, so living in Chicago would be appealing because it's close to my family. I do, though, want to live in NYC at some point in life, and worry that if I don't do it now, I'll end up living in Chicago for the rest of my life (not that there's anything wrong with that, I just don't feel ready to be a grown up and settle down yet). So I'd say location is a toss up.

Cost: I think I'd be able to graduate NU with around 75K in debt, and would leave CLS/Chicago with probably around 250K in debt. I have no UG debt, thank the heavens. Part of me also feels like the debt shouldn't be such a concern, given that CLS has a very generous LRAP program and I could have it forgiven in 5 years. However, I realize getting good PI jobs is not as easy as it sounds, and so I may be unable to access that great LRAP program.

Other Considerations: I'm kind of freaking out that to get a top job out of NU, I'd have to really do well. Obviously I plan on working hard and hope very much to do well, but I think it's hard to know until you're in law school. It seems like you can be around median at T6 schools and you're going to be fine, but from what I hear, that's not necessarily the case at lower T-14 schools. I also know that CLS has guaranteed summer funding, which would make getting summer experience at the kinds of jobs (I think) I want more realistic. Also, I'd be lying if I said I didn't care about the brand of Columbia and the prestige associated with it. Not something I'm proud of, but still...

SO I'd love to hear from the wise folks of TLS. Will my employment options be substantially limited at the most competitive jobs if I choose NU? Is choosing Columbia totally irresponsible and stupid (say this nicely please!) ? Thanks so much in advance!

anon369 wrote:Northwestern-- 55k/year
CLS-- 40 k split between the three years
U Chicago- 30 k split between the three years

I know that a ton of people are going to say this isn't even close, but I do feel quite conflicted.

Interests: I want to do competitive/prestigious PI/government work (ACLU, federal gov., etc) and a clerkship hopefully. I'm concerned that I won't have the opportunities available to me graduating from Northwestern that I would from Columbia or Chicago.

Location: I'm from the Midwest, so living in Chicago would be appealing because it's close to my family. I do, though, want to live in NYC at some point in life, and worry that if I don't do it now, I'll end up living in Chicago for the rest of my life (not that there's anything wrong with that, I just don't feel ready to be a grown up and settle down yet). So I'd say location is a toss up.

Cost: I think I'd be able to graduate NU with around 75K in debt, and would leave CLS/Chicago with probably around 250K in debt. I have no UG debt, thank the heavens. Part of me also feels like the debt shouldn't be such a concern, given that CLS has a very generous LRAP program and I could have it forgiven in 5 years. However, I realize getting good PI jobs is not as easy as it sounds, and so I may be unable to access that great LRAP program.

Other Considerations: I'm kind of freaking out that to get a top job out of NU, I'd have to really do well. Obviously I plan on working hard and hope very much to do well, but I think it's hard to know until you're in law school. It seems like you can be around median at T6 schools and you're going to be fine, but from what I hear, that's not necessarily the case at lower T-14 schools. I also know that CLS has guaranteed summer funding, which would make getting summer experience at the kinds of jobs (I think) I want more realistic. Also, I'd be lying if I said I didn't care about the brand of Columbia and the prestige associated with it. Not something I'm proud of, but still...

SO I'd love to hear from the wise folks of TLS. Will my employment options be substantially limited at the most competitive jobs if I choose NU? Is choosing Columbia totally irresponsible and stupid (say this nicely please!) ? Thanks so much in advance!

Try negotiating with Chicago. There's no way its worth 175k+ over NU and they know that. They may bump your aid but as of now it really isn't close.

If you can get Columbia or Chicago to up their offers, I think it will have to come down to Chicago/Columbia's LRAP versus manageable debt at Northwestern. You can get good PI work from either Columbia or Chicago, so I think if the money is better from negotiations, that should be your choice given your goals.

As it stands though, Northwestern is the better option of the three.

I sent my offer from Northwestern to both schools before I received the grant information. Is there any way to haggle if I don't have any bargaining chips left?

Neither Columbia nor Chicago is worth the additional 150K cost of attendance.

enjoy NU

You're really getting low balled at Chicago and Columbia. That said, I think the network in place for public interest is better at those two schools. There are just more faculty plugged into the nonprofit world than at NU which tends to skew corporate. I don't think the difference matters for federal government, but for PI those pipelines matter.

Since you're interested in clerking, I'd pick Chicago after negotiating hard on the scholarship.

RE: Haggling, just get on the phone with Chicago and say: "I'm really interested in U of C, I really want to stay in Chicago, I'm really interested in how much you support people pursuing clerkships, but it's really hard for me to walk away from $155k at a place where I'll also have the opportunity to pursue those things." The goal is to show a compelling reason to prefer Chicago while conveying that the preference isn't exactly a $125k one.

I like Columbia, but it's a firm feeder at heart. Your goals align best with UChicago.

I support negotiation. UChi raised my aid award in a previous cycle (where schools were less generous) to come to 1/2 an NU award. I got the sense that was a reasonable expectation - so you should push for $75k. At that point, since NU isn't traditionally as strong for your goals, Chi would be justified.

At these current costs, I'd still take Northwestern.

Thank you for the feedback! I'm going to try to negotiate more with CLS and Chicago, but they already knew about the NU offer when they gave me that money, which means all I can really say is "but please, more money just because?!" My numbers are fine, but nothing to write home about. Quite frankly, pretty shocked to be making this decision. So I don't think they're going to be willing to shell out too much money to keep me. Also, I have to decide whether to accept the scholarship at NU by Friday.

If I hope to go PI, doesn't that sort of neutralize the debt issue, since I could have it forgiven in 5 years from the CLS LRAP? Or would it be unwise to depend on that? If I go the NU route, are my hopes of competitive PI/clerkship/fed gov out the window (barring some unimaginable combo of stellar grades, figuring out the key to eradicating gender discrimination and insane lucky connections while at NU)?

Do not bank on getting PI. When you make the decision, assume that you will be paying it all off on your own, and that there will be no loan forgiveness program for you because you are going into public interest. That being said, if you accept the scholarship at NU, and later decide not to go, what happens? If its noting, and all you lose is your scholarship, don't sweat it. But double check first.

ermmmmm
tag

I'm not really sure there is much of an advantage in top PI / gov hiring at Chicago or Columbia. Certainly neither school place a ton of people in either. CCN being better than the rest is really only a thing at top private firms.

Both NU and Columbia placed 5% into government. U of C placed a whopping 5.5%!

You don't have to do well at NU to get a job. Over 85% get a 100k+ salary, a fed clerkship, or government work.

Yes debt matters is you want PI for a bunch of reasons:

1) chances are you freak out and run to biglaw like everyone else

2) you seem to want prestige PI which is very hard to get

3) you might not like PI and jump ship well before 10 years.

Low debt is liberating. You can do whatever the fuck you want. There is an objectively right choice here.

if you want pedigree for top PI jobs (ACLU), there is HYS and everyone else. Period.

At these prices, NU is a no-brainer. (Columbia's rep is for Firm jobs, and that is not your goal, so its' value is emotional not practical.) But agree with the others, grovel with Chicago and see if they'll up the ante.

Desert Fox wrote: You don't have to do well at NU to get a job. Over 85% get a 100k+ salary, a fed clerkship, or government work.

NU is so smart to release that granulated salary info. Makes it just take much easier to turn down mysterious prestige and take the scholarship at NU.

FWIW, I got Northwestern to extend my scholarship acceptance deadline by a few days. I still have to decide before U Chicago starts their negotiating process, but it's at least worth an email to the NU admissions office to ask about an extension. Worse comes to worse you deposit at NU, change your mind, and lose out on money, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to all of the loans we're getting ready to take out anyway.....

Big Dog wrote:if you want pedigree for top PI jobs (ACLU), there is HYS and everyone else.

I disagree that prestigious PI is about pedigree. A lot of it is luck and connections. HYS obviously has those connections, and I think Chicago and Columbia have at least more of them than NU. That said, it's a rare outcome from anywhere. See: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/08/reminder ... due-soon-2.

If you're 100% dedicated to PI, and that means you'd be willing to do something like work for a state government agency or an unknown non-profit, the 5-year loan forgiveness at Columbia could be compelling, and probably gives you an increased if still rare shot at prestigious PI. If you'd rather do big law if you don't get DOJ Honors or ACLU, then taking the money at NU makes a lot more sense.

Out of curiosity OP, if your main interest is PI, why is NYU not in play here? NYU's LRAP, from what i hear, is better than even harvard's, and certainly columbia's. I'm currently a 1L at columbia and i can pretty much tell you that PI is not a major focus of this school.

EnormousCheese wrote:Out of curiosity OP, if your main interest is PI, why is NYU not in play here? NYU's LRAP, from what i hear, is better than even harvard's, and certainly columbia's. I'm currently a 1L at columbia and i can pretty much tell you that PI is not a major focus of this school.

NYU didn't offer me any money, and honestly their LRAP program doesn't seem too terribly different from what I could tell. Admittedly, reading the LRAP stuff gives me sort of a headache (a harbinger of a miserable life as a lawyer??) and I still am struggling to understand some of it. Like, at Columbia, your LRAP loans are forgiven at 5 years-- but do your LRAP loans= all of your loans? And then why is there any talk of ten years? Do they get forgiven at the point, but you have to stay doing PI?

kathj06 wrote:FWIW, I got Northwestern to extend my scholarship acceptance deadline by a few days. I still have to decide before U Chicago starts their negotiating process, but it's at least worth an email to the NU admissions office to ask about an extension. Worse comes to worse you deposit at NU, change your mind, and lose out on money, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to all of the loans we're getting ready to take out anyway.....

Thank you for letting me know. I got a couple of days extension, too! The NU scholarship deposit is not binding--just expensive-- correct??

anon369 wrote:

kathj06 wrote:FWIW, I got Northwestern to extend my scholarship acceptance deadline by a few days. I still have to decide before U Chicago starts their negotiating process, but it's at least worth an email to the NU admissions office to ask about an extension. Worse comes to worse you deposit at NU, change your mind, and lose out on money, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to all of the loans we're getting ready to take out anyway.....

Thank you for letting me know. I got a couple of days extension, too! The NU scholarship deposit is not binding--just expensive-- correct??

I emailed to ask, and the deposit is not binding.

anon369 wrote:

EnormousCheese wrote:Out of curiosity OP, if your main interest is PI, why is NYU not in play here? NYU's LRAP, from what i hear, is better than even harvard's, and certainly columbia's. I'm currently a 1L at columbia and i can pretty much tell you that PI is not a major focus of this school.

NYU didn't offer me any money, and honestly their LRAP program doesn't seem too terribly different from what I could tell. Admittedly, reading the LRAP stuff gives me sort of a headache (a harbinger of a miserable life as a lawyer??) and I still am struggling to understand some of it. Like, at Columbia, your LRAP loans are forgiven at 5 years-- but do your LRAP loans= all of your loans? And then why is there any talk of ten years? Do they get forgiven at the point, but you have to stay doing PI?

Hi! Here's my take as a 0L who's spent a lot of miserable time reading LRAP info (including Columbia's):

Columbia (or any school) does not have the power to directly forgive your federal loans -- rather, Columbia's LRAP loans you money, you use that money to make your federal loan payments, and then Columbia has the power to forgive the loans it made to you. The 5-year mark is when 100% of the loans you have received through Columbia's LRAP up until that point are forgiven, assuming you have stayed in qualifying employment for all 5 years. Between years 5-10, I believe Columbia forgives its LRAP loans at the end of each year, again, assuming you have stayed in qualifying employment.

Here's what is so important about the 10-year mark: through a program called Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF), the federal government will forgive the remaining balance of your federal loans after 120 payments (i.e. 10 years of monthly payments) made while in qualifying public service employment. You may want to look into the rules for qualifying for PSLF, as almost all LRAPs now are specifically designed to be complementary to PSLF, and can actually be nearly useless without it (also, PSLF is subject to the bureaucratically-impaired-yet-still-theoretically-devastating whims of the federal government).

So, hopefully how it would work overall is that Columbia would loan you money to make your federal loan payments for 10 years, Columbia would forgive the loans it made to you at the 5-year mark and annually thereafter, and the federal government would forgive the rest of it at the end of 10 years. HOWEVER. As you have already seen in your research, there are many many detailed rules for how LRAPs work and they vary widely from school to school -- depending on your particular circumstances (salary, type of career, spouse's income, career interruptions/changes), these rules may have great benefits or grave risks for you. Michigan has a great list of things to consider/examine about a school's LRAP: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... mpare.aspx. Here is Columbia's LRAP: http://web.law.columbia.edu/sites/defau ... 202010.pdf.

Basically, the LRAP/PSLF combo can do great things for you, but in my opinion, it's important to know EXACTLY how it works before you bet on it.

What does "prestigious PI" mean? ACLU and government are likely on opposite sides of many issues.

matilda0401 wrote:

anon369 wrote:

EnormousCheese wrote:Out of curiosity OP, if your main interest is PI, why is NYU not in play here? NYU's LRAP, from what i hear, is better than even harvard's, and certainly columbia's. I'm currently a 1L at columbia and i can pretty much tell you that PI is not a major focus of this school.

NYU didn't offer me any money, and honestly their LRAP program doesn't seem too terribly different from what I could tell. Admittedly, reading the LRAP stuff gives me sort of a headache (a harbinger of a miserable life as a lawyer??) and I still am struggling to understand some of it. Like, at Columbia, your LRAP loans are forgiven at 5 years-- but do your LRAP loans= all of your loans? And then why is there any talk of ten years? Do they get forgiven at the point, but you have to stay doing PI?

Hi! Here's my take as a 0L who's spent a lot of miserable time reading LRAP info (including Columbia's):

Columbia (or any school) does not have the power to directly forgive your federal loans -- rather, Columbia's LRAP loans you money, you use that money to make your federal loan payments, and then Columbia has the power to forgive the loans it made to you. The 5-year mark is when 100% of the loans you have received through Columbia's LRAP up until that point are forgiven, assuming you have stayed in qualifying employment for all 5 years. Between years 5-10, I believe Columbia forgives its LRAP loans at the end of each year, again, assuming you have stayed in qualifying employment.

Here's what is so important about the 10-year mark: through a program called Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF), the federal government will forgive the remaining balance of your federal loans after 120 payments (i.e. 10 years of monthly payments) made while in qualifying public service employment. You may want to look into the rules for qualifying for PSLF, as almost all LRAPs now are specifically designed to be complementary to PSLF, and can actually be nearly useless without it (also, PSLF is subject to the bureaucratically-impaired-yet-still-theoretically-devastating whims of the federal government).

So, hopefully how it would work overall is that Columbia would loan you money to make your federal loan payments for 10 years, Columbia would forgive the loans it made to you at the 5-year mark and annually thereafter, and the federal government would forgive the rest of it at the end of 10 years. HOWEVER. As you have already seen in your research, there are many many detailed rules for how LRAPs work and they vary widely from school to school -- depending on your particular circumstances (salary, type of career, spouse's income, career interruptions/changes), these rules may have great benefits or grave risks for you. Michigan has a great list of things to consider/examine about a school's LRAP: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... mpare.aspx. Here is Columbia's LRAP: http://web.law.columbia.edu/sites/defau ... 202010.pdf.

Basically, the LRAP/PSLF combo can do great things for you, but in my opinion, it's important to know EXACTLY how it works before you bet on it.

Thanks so much for that! So if someone were to do PI for five years and then go into the private sector, they'd presumably have around half of their loans paid back? And if you left before five years you'd have the remainder of your debt PLUS part of what Columbia had loaned you through LRAP in previous years?

No. CLS forgives the loans it made to you. You still owe the federal government all the money you borrowed from them.