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Notre Dame coa = $65,075 loan amount, UCI coa = $134,612 loan amount. Financed through loans. I'm from the L.A. area and I'd like to work in southern California. I have some ties here through my dad, biggest being a partner at a V-75 in L.A. who is a friend of my dad's and he's taken a liking to me. I'm not sure what kind of law I want to do yet; I'm pretty open, but I'd like to get my loans payed off as quickly as possible at first. LSAT 161/UGPA 3.95. I've taken the LSAT once. I'm not sure the kind of pull Notre Dame has down here in relation to a regional, albeit a new regional with almost no alumni network. Don't really want to move to Indiana, but if the job placement differential is likely to be significant then of course I'll stick it out in the Midwest. ANY advice is appreciated.

Gotta do all this first: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206299

I wouldn't attend either at those prices. ND won't give you a great chance at CA employment, and is far too expensive. To attend UCI at that price is madness. It is extremely unlikely that you'll be able to pay your debt off quickly from either of those schools at those prices. Retake or don't go, imo.

Just going to go ahead and warn you, with that LSAT and that GPA, the only advice that you're going to get is to retake the LSAT.

Retaking is probably good advice here though.

Retake, no question. That GPA could get you into HYS, don't waste it on one of these schools at these prices.

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You're going to waste a 3.95 on one of these schools? Ridiculous, says this Notre Dame graduate.

UCI has placed well, but no one is sure how long Chemerinsky can keep pulling employment rabbits out of a hat. UCI is undoubtedly (for now) better for any CA placement, but they are extremely volatile.

ND places something like ≈10% of grads in CA, so maybe it will work out, but who knows. It doesn't matter though, because there is no way in hell you should pay 200K+ for UCI. It's not that ND for 150k isn't just shy of robbery, but it's better than the alternative. If you're dead set on going this year and have connections in CA, go with ND and good luck.

ndirish2010 wrote:You're going to waste a 3.95 on one of these schools? Ridiculous, says this Notre Dame graduate.

Can't say it any better or clearer.

Also, how old are we talking? If you laid down serious roots in California, you should still retake to get USC/UCLA for cheap. It's the only reasonable response.

ExSem wrote:I should have guessed these responses and I know everyone's trying to give the best advice, but I'm quite a bit older and I'm not waiting another year to go to law school. So, I think we should all accept certain responses as given such as: "you're wasting that GPA, retake" "T14 or you're throwing your life away, retake" "retake until you get a 175" "T6 or you're throwing your life away, retake" "get 5 years experience in the legal profession, then retake." This is all sound advice, but if someone could address the relative merits of Notre Dame vs. UCI for job employment in southern California (without saying "they have no merits you're throwing your life away") that would really make my day.

Good luck! Follow your dreams!

ExSem wrote:I should have guessed these responses and I know everyone's trying to give the best advice, but I'm quite a bit older and I'm not waiting another year to go to law school. So, I think we should all accept certain responses as given such as: "you're wasting that GPA, retake" "T14 or you're throwing your life away, retake" "retake until you get a 175" "T6 or you're throwing your life away, retake" "get 5 years experience in the legal profession, then retake." This is all sound advice, but if someone could address the relative merits of Notre Dame vs. UCI for job employment in southern California (without saying "they have no merits you're throwing your life away") that would really make my day.

I guarantee I was older than you when I decide to retake/reapply and put off law school for another year. And it was probably one of the smartest/best things I have ever done for myself.

Also, stop building strawmen. Nobody said you need to be T14 or bust. Don't be dumb.

Also #2, it's not your gpa's fault that you didn't take/retake the LSAT back in October, December, or February so you could go this cycle. So stop punishing your gpa with your lack of foresight.

Retake, silly.

BigZuck wrote:

ExSem wrote:I should have guessed these responses and I know everyone's trying to give the best advice, but I'm quite a bit older and I'm not waiting another year to go to law school. So, I think we should all accept certain responses as given such as: "you're wasting that GPA, retake" "T14 or you're throwing your life away, retake" "retake until you get a 175" "T6 or you're throwing your life away, retake" "get 5 years experience in the legal profession, then retake." This is all sound advice, but if someone could address the relative merits of Notre Dame vs. UCI for job employment in southern California (without saying "they have no merits you're throwing your life away") that would really make my day.

I guarantee I was older than you when I decide to retake/reapply and put off law school for another year. And it was probably one of the smartest/best things I have ever done for myself.

Also, stop building strawmen. Nobody said you need to be T14 or bust. Don't be dumb.

Also #2, it's not your gpa's fault that you didn't take/retake the LSAT back in October, December, or February so you could go this cycle. So stop punishing your gpa with your lack of foresight.

Retake, silly.

+ 1. you are immature

I took the LSAT in December (wanted to take it in October, but I had to be in a friend's wedding the same day nowhere near a testing site) and I was told that most all law schools don't accept the February LSAT for that cycle, and that even if they do it's so late in the cycle that enrollment is pretty much filled. I learned very recently that retaking in February was more of an option than I thought. I'm not in the ideal scenario I know.

I'm glad taking a year off to retake works out for people. Nothing's set in stone here. I'm not trying to set up straw man arguments, but rather hopefully (naively) direct responses narrowly to the question I asked. Annnnnnnd people are calling me immature. That was fast. I'm guessing by a lot of responses that if someone asked a question between two tier-2 schools on here almost everyone would dismiss it off hand and would just bombard the kid with retake advice without having read past his LSAT/GPA numbers in the original post.

I'm fine with retake advice, if there's also some advice that addresses the question asked. Otherwise this forum is too exclusive to the questions of only those with all the right numbers and everyone else just gets "you can't ask questions here until you're in the club, so my advice is get in the club." I just think responses of "get in the club" without also addressing the question of the OP on at least some level can come off a little elitist at times. I'm not saying the club members don't have good reason, I'm just saying a little more inclusion and a little less projected paranoia would be more constructive.

ExSem wrote:I took the LSAT in December (wanted to take it in October, but I had to be in a friend's wedding the same day nowhere near a testing site) and I was told that most all law schools don't accept the February LSAT for that cycle, and that even if they do it's so late in the cycle that enrollment is pretty much filled. I learned very recently that retaking in February was more of an option than I thought. I'm not in the ideal scenario I know.

I'm glad taking a year off to retake works out for people. Nothing's set in stone here. I'm not trying to set up straw man arguments, but rather hopefully (naively) direct responses narrowly to the question I asked. Annnnnnnd people are calling me immature. That was fast. I'm guessing by a lot of responses that if someone asked a question between two tier-2 schools on here almost everyone would dismiss it off hand and would just bombard the kid with retake advice without having read past his LSAT/GPA numbers in the original post.

I'm fine with retake advice, if there's also some advice that addresses the question asked. Otherwise this forum is too exclusive to the questions of only those with all the right numbers and everyone else just gets "you can't ask questions here until you're in the club, so my advice is get in the club." I just think responses of "get in the club" without also addressing the question of the OP on at least some level can come off a little elitist at times. I'm not saying the club members don't have good reason, I'm just saying a little more inclusion and a little less projected paranoia would be more constructive.

When you look at LST, you can clearly see that Notre Dame does not have enough pull to get you big law (which I assume is what you want since you want to pay off loans as quickly as possible) in Southern California at any significantly positive clip. And that's assuming all 10% of its CA placement is big law. So don't take that level of debt for UND.

As for UCI, they had somewhat solid placement with a small class, but it's too new to know if that'll hold as the class grows and the dean's favors run out.

Now take a real look at the retake advice. Let's say you retake in June with adequate prep, get a 168-170 (very doable), then reapply to USC/UCLA for potentially a full ride. Now you're looking at BETTER Southern California placement in your desired jobs and aren't saddled with excessive debt. How does that NOT sound like the best option? If you can explain cogently why that's not worth doing, I'll listen to your thoughts. But for now...

RETAKE.

Irvine use to offer really good $$$, this year they dont even offer anything close to USC/UCLA for decent stat applicants.

ExSem wrote:I took the LSAT in December (wanted to take it in October, but I had to be in a friend's wedding the same day nowhere near a testing site) and I was told that most all law schools don't accept the February LSAT for that cycle, and that even if they do it's so late in the cycle that enrollment is pretty much filled. I learned very recently that retaking in February was more of an option than I thought. I'm not in the ideal scenario I know.

I'm glad taking a year off to retake works out for people. Nothing's set in stone here. I'm not trying to set up straw man arguments, but rather hopefully (naively) direct responses narrowly to the question I asked. Annnnnnnd people are calling me immature. That was fast. I'm guessing by a lot of responses that if someone asked a question between two tier-2 schools on here almost everyone would dismiss it off hand and would just bombard the kid with retake advice without having read past his LSAT/GPA numbers in the original post.

I'm fine with retake advice, if there's also some advice that addresses the question asked. Otherwise this forum is too exclusive to the questions of only those with all the right numbers and everyone else just gets "you can't ask questions here until you're in the club, so my advice is get in the club." I just think responses of "get in the club" without also addressing the question of the OP on at least some level can come off a little elitist at times. I'm not saying the club members don't have good reason, I'm just saying a little more inclusion and a little less projected paranoia would be more constructive.

Again, straw men

Maybe I misunderstood you. You don't want big law? I assumed you did because you mentioned V75 connections, ND's placement in CA (obviously going there to get CA small firm work makes no sense), and you said wanted to pay off debt fast. I took all that to mean you want big law, and obviously the answer is "Neither one of these schools, retake." Their big law placement is not good enough, especially not at those prices. If you want big law in LA you need to look at UCLA/USC on a big scholarship at a bare minimum. But not doing your damnedest to get into HYS (or CCN or B on a scholarship) when you have almost a 4.0 and want big law would be a colossal mistake, IMO.

If you came here and said UCI was free and you want to work as a public defender in Orange County no one would have batted an eye. The fact that you're presenting us with BIG DEBT and what looks like big law aspirations at schools with so-so placement is your problem, not ours. So instead of calling us elitists perhaps look in the mirror and realize that you're either mispresenting your aspirations, OR you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

xJD2017x wrote:Irvine use to offer really good $$$, this year they dont even offer anything close to USC/UCLA for decent stat applicants.

Plus their employment stats are getting worse and worse and the class size is growing

I'm not calling everyone an elitist, I'm saying that dismissing people's questions off hand for not having high enough numbers and only answering with depth those posts of people with high numbers can be construed that way. So far the information I've gotten here has been really helpful, if it did need a little prodding. Thank you everyone for posting and helping me out with this situation. To some people the answers to law school questions are obvious and don't need explanations, to others a little explaining is more helpful.

The only reason people here are so set on "retake" and seem elitist is because they have seen so many lives ruined by big debt and unemployment at schools like ND and UCI. There's something to be said for chasing your dreams and all, but know that a ton of people in law school right now are ruining their lives. Everyone saying retake is trying to keep you from being one of them. You might find them annoying at the moment, but plenty of people regret not taking the advice and many (lots of which are posting) followed the advice and consider it to be the best career decision they ever made.

ExSem wrote:I'm fine with retake advice, if there's also some advice that addresses the question asked. Otherwise this forum is too exclusive to the questions of only those with all the right numbers and everyone else just gets "you can't ask questions here until you're in the club, so my advice is get in the club." I just think responses of "get in the club" without also addressing the question of the OP on at least some level can come off a little elitist at times. I'm not saying the club members don't have good reason, I'm just saying a little more inclusion and a little less projected paranoia would be more constructive.

That people are suggesting you retake is the opposite of elitism because they believe that you are capable despite your own excuses. The LSAT is nothing special and anybody can excel on it. If your options were UCI for free or Berkeley at sticker, I guarantee that many would argue for you to go with UCI. If you do not want to retake, that is fine, but understand that the advice given is in your best interests. Debt is even more important if you are an older individual because you have less time to pay it off. If you are absolutely dead-set on going to law school in the fall, I'd throw some apps to some garbage schools in CA (PCoL, SW, Loyola, etc.), and see if you can't get a full ride or close to it still.

Dude if you go to either school for this much d-e-b-t, you are financially insane.

I do get where you're coming from OP. Why not study up for a couple of months and then take the June LSAT and just see what happens? All it can do is help you negotiate an increase in scholarship offers to these schools with just a couple of points. Then, when you TOTALLY kill it on the LSAT, you can make a decision about what to do at that point.

That's what I'm doing anyway. I'm happy with my options now, but if it can only help make them even better options...why not give it a try right?

Concedo. Thanks for the info everyone. A lot to think about.

Big changes in the coa, and I figured out that I was using the georgetown calculator wrong (numbers and I are sworn enemies, hence law school). Point is moot now, but given the conditional nature of everyone's advice, I am wondering if these new loan amounts (mainly ND's) warrants attendance...

Notre Dame for 60k~ COA is a fantastic idea... if you want to practice in Indiana or Chicago for the rest of your foreseeable legal career. You're below their LSAT median, and that's saying a lot considering how low it is.

I appreciate that you're old (or you think you're old), but a year to sit out this cycle is not going to ruin your life. Study, retake in October.