Top Law Schools

Hey everyone, I am having a real tough decision.

I will be finishing up my senior year at University of Michigan next month and I am trying to decide if I should stay in Ann Arbor or leave to Virginia? I am young - I just turned 21.

I was awarded a Dean's Scholarship at Michigan for 30,000 and I get in-state tuition. I got nothing from Virginia and I have had no luck trying to negotiate anything. Therefore attended UVA (where I have to pay out of state) will cost me approximately 50,000 more to attend over the 3 year period of law school. No one else who I spoke to at Virginia's orientation that also had a scholarship from a peer-ranked school was able to get VA to budge.

I think I like Michigan more but that may be that I am comfortable here. I have friends in the law school already, it's close to home, and I already have connections with professors in the law school and some of Michigan's graduate schools. My thesis advisor wants to publish something with me.

Virginia is slightly higher ranked though and perhaps it would be good to try a new experience? Michigan is also so beautiful and I was not very impressed with the Virginia Law School campus - the classrooms had no windows. .However maybe it is worth it to try something new. I'm not sure if Virginia also affords more opportunities than Michigan because of the rank and my friends think maybe going to Michigan would mean selling myself short.

I want to go into public service environmental law and it seems Michigan has a better LRAP. However, Virginia has slightly more ties to DC which I think is where I am likely to find a job of this nature. Unfortunately neither school has the statistics for where students that participated in their environmental law programs end up going or doing.

What do you guys think?

with no comparable offer at Virginia, this is a non issue, easily Michigan

what are your stats?

Michigan is the easy call here.

So would you guys say that Virginia's slightly higher rank won't really mean much for acquiring opportunities in public interest environmental law?

wolvegal44 wrote:So would you guys say that Virginia's slightly higher rank won't really mean much for acquiring opportunities in public interest environmental law?

in that those opportunities will be equally difficult from both schools, no.

I'm biased, but my visits to the schools gave me the impression tha out of all law schools, UVA and Michigan have the most in common: similar class sizes, similar emphasis on collegiality and community, similar access to professors, similar pride from alumni. However, I thought Michigan distinguishes itself by having slightly more accessible faculty, a bit more academic focus, and a great football experience (if that is something you care about, which I do).

You seem to already want to go to Michigan, and your finances support that goal. I say go for it!

Michigan is TCR. Sounds like you've got it made at Michigan.

lakers180 wrote:with no comparable offer at Virginia, this is a non issue, easily Michigan

This.

Also, I'm not sure that the type of law you're interested in really exists in a meaningful, "get you a job" kind of way. I would look into that if I were you.

The only person I have seen who does this is a guy who graduated from Harvard:

http://waltzerwiygul.com/our-people/joel-waltzer/

wolvegal44 wrote:So would you guys say that Virginia's slightly higher rank won't really mean much for acquiring opportunities in public interest environmental law?

The difference in rankings is just noise. Over the last 6 years, each has been ranked higher than the other half the time.

BigZuck wrote:

lakers180 wrote:with no comparable offer at Virginia, this is a non issue, easily Michigan

This.

Also, I'm not sure that the type of law you're interested in really exists in a meaningful, "get you a job" kind of way. I would look into that if I were you.

It certainly does exist. There are a number of public interest and government organizations doing environmental law, and many firms have practices working on the defense side. It's not a big leap to go from working CERCLA litigation on the defense side to acquire skills to jumping to a non-profit on the plaintiffs side. And then there is the EPA, and numerous state agencies.

Like all public interest law, it's a though road to hoe, because jobs are scarce, but it's not a unicorn situation. My friend just got a job doing environmental enforcement at a state AG office.

rayiner wrote:

BigZuck wrote:

lakers180 wrote:with no comparable offer at Virginia, this is a non issue, easily Michigan

This.

Also, I'm not sure that the type of law you're interested in really exists in a meaningful, "get you a job" kind of way. I would look into that if I were you.

It certainly does exist. There are a number of public interest and government organizations doing environmental law, and many firms have practices working on the defense side. It's not a big leap to go from working CERCLA litigation on the defense side to acquire skills to jumping to a non-profit on the plaintiffs side. And then there is the EPA, and numerous state agencies.

Like all public interest law, it's a though road to hoe, because jobs are scarce, but it's not a unicorn situation. My friend just got a job doing environmental enforcement at a state AG office.

I defer to your wisdom, and as I said I wasn't sure.

I regard "I want PI, no big lawz please" with a fair amount of cynicism/skepticism when that is expressed by 0Ls. Throw "environmental" in front of that and I'm even more skeptical, which probably isn't fair. Good to know this is viable.

BigZuck wrote: I defer to your wisdom, and as I said I wasn't sure.

I regard "I want PI, no big lawz please" with a fair amount of cynicism/skepticism when that is expressed by 0Ls. Throw "environmental" in front of that and I'm even more skeptical, which probably isn't fair. Good to know this is viable.

The general sentiment is right. It's a tough area to break into on the PI side, and you need a demonstrable interest. But at least there is some work to go around, and firms and organizations doing it, unlike with international human rights or animal law or whatever.

rayiner wrote:

BigZuck wrote: I defer to your wisdom, and as I said I wasn't sure.

I regard "I want PI, no big lawz please" with a fair amount of cynicism/skepticism when that is expressed by 0Ls. Throw "environmental" in front of that and I'm even more skeptical, which probably isn't fair. Good to know this is viable.

The general sentiment is right. It's a tough area to break into on the PI side, and you need a demonstrable interest. But at least there is some work to go around, and firms and organizations doing it, unlike with international human rights or animal law or whatever.

I would say IHR and enviro are about equally difficult to obtain. There are a ton of people looking for PI enviro jobs and the funding for those is in a pretty distressed state. Where I work we fund the environment work through extra fundraising for LGBT work.

worldtraveler wrote:

rayiner wrote:

BigZuck wrote: I defer to your wisdom, and as I said I wasn't sure.

I regard "I want PI, no big lawz please" with a fair amount of cynicism/skepticism when that is expressed by 0Ls. Throw "environmental" in front of that and I'm even more skeptical, which probably isn't fair. Good to know this is viable.

The general sentiment is right. It's a tough area to break into on the PI side, and you need a demonstrable interest. But at least there is some work to go around, and firms and organizations doing it, unlike with international human rights or animal law or whatever.

I would say IHR and enviro are about equally difficult to obtain. There are a ton of people looking for PI enviro jobs and the funding for those is in a pretty distressed state. Where I work we fund the environment work through extra fundraising for LGBT work.

The difference is that the enviro world is bigger than just nonprofits. You have government agencies and also firms where you can build real experience litigating CERCLA cases, etc. Some people will turn up their nose working for the "bad guys" but other organizations are happy to have them subsidize the training. E.g. http://elpc.org/bugel, http://elpc.org/cassel. At least the organization we worked with at NU, ELPC, also values clerkships as relevant experience which many PI organizations don't seem to.

rayiner wrote:

worldtraveler wrote:

rayiner wrote:

BigZuck wrote: I defer to your wisdom, and as I said I wasn't sure.

I regard "I want PI, no big lawz please" with a fair amount of cynicism/skepticism when that is expressed by 0Ls. Throw "environmental" in front of that and I'm even more skeptical, which probably isn't fair. Good to know this is viable.

The general sentiment is right. It's a tough area to break into on the PI side, and you need a demonstrable interest. But at least there is some work to go around, and firms and organizations doing it, unlike with international human rights or animal law or whatever.

I would say IHR and enviro are about equally difficult to obtain. There are a ton of people looking for PI enviro jobs and the funding for those is in a pretty distressed state. Where I work we fund the environment work through extra fundraising for LGBT work.

The difference is that the enviro world is bigger than just nonprofits. You have government agencies and also firms where you can build real experience litigating CERCLA cases, etc. Some people will turn up their nose working for the "bad guys" but other organizations are happy to have them subsidize the training. E.g. http://elpc.org/bugel, http://elpc.org/cassel. At least the organization we worked with at NU, ELPC, also values clerkships as relevant experience which many PI organizations don't seem to.

This is true, although I tend to think most peoople wanting enviro law are true believers who want to work at the Sierra Club. Also, I'm not sure people realize that a lot of it is about really boring zoning cods and water laws.

I just want to reiterate that the rankings difference is just noise. Michigan was ranked higher two years ago.

take Mich

Michigan, and I don't think it's close.

worldtraveler wrote:
This is true, although I tend to think most peoople wanting enviro law are true believers who want to work at the Sierra Club. Also, I'm not sure people realize that a lot of it is about really boring zoning cods and water laws.

This could be said of literally any area of law. 0Ls imagine themselves doing [insert exciting/high impact/often non-law work here] not realizing that the practice they claim is their dream job actually consists of [insert the drudgery of legal practice here].

IAFG wrote:

worldtraveler wrote:
This is true, although I tend to think most peoople wanting enviro law are true believers who want to work at the Sierra Club. Also, I'm not sure people realize that a lot of it is about really boring zoning cods and water laws.

This could be said of literally any area of law. 0Ls imagine themselves doing [insert exciting/high impact/often non-law work here] not realizing that the practice they claim is their dream job actually consists of [insert the drudgery of legal practice here].

so so so true.
This is the number one thing I would tell a friend considering law school. It's great if you have a cause you want to advocate for but you need to realize that your actual work is going to be really similar in biglaw or impact litigation. If you hate the work you won't necessarily hate it any less just because you're doing it for a good cause.

dixiecupdrinking wrote:

IAFG wrote:

worldtraveler wrote:
This is true, although I tend to think most peoople wanting enviro law are true believers who want to work at the Sierra Club. Also, I'm not sure people realize that a lot of it is about really boring zoning cods and water laws.

This could be said of literally any area of law. 0Ls imagine themselves doing [insert exciting/high impact/often non-law work here] not realizing that the practice they claim is their dream job actually consists of [insert the drudgery of legal practice here].

so so so true.
This is the number one thing I would tell a friend considering law school. It's great if you have a cause you want to advocate for but you need to realize that your actual work is going to be really similar in biglaw or impact litigation. If you hate the work you won't necessarily hate it any less just because you're doing it for a good cause.

Yeah impact litigation is probably one of the more boring things out there given the cases can drag on for years or even decades.