UVA ($$$) vs. Harvard - Are these LRAP calculations crazy? Forum

[Iuso]

So I have read a couple of these threads, and there seems to be a different consensus based on a variety of factors (big law/PI, outside income, etc.). I also started doing some LRAP calculations that really threw me for a loop. Any thoughts you all have would be appreciated.

Goals:
I am 100% interested in public interest and have no interest in big law. I am looking at perhaps JAG or DA office. My dream would be big fed, but I realize that getting a job at a federal agency without a few years of work experience is rare. I have Virginia/DC ties and would like to work on the East Coast.

Choices:
University of Virginia: Full tuition scholarship, ~$51,000 COL (3yr)
Harvard: $236,000 COA (3yr) - Applying for need based aid, but will not hear back before UVA seat deposit due.

From what I've gathered from general TLS wisdom, the answer would be UVA because the best LRAP is no debt and UVA and Harvard are weighted approximately the same for most PI.

LRAP Calculations:
Because I am completely aiming for PI, I would plan to use LRAP programs extensively. I am calculating based on some scenarios in the GS and/or military pay scale which would start me out at about $40k and put me at about $70k after 10 years.
Under Harvard LIPP: While my total loan payments with interest would be around $330k, under LIPP it seems like I would end up paying about $46k over the course of a 10-year payment plan. At the end of 10 years, I would be completely debt free because LIPP covers the rest of each payment.

Under Virginia VLFP/IBR (Minimum Payment): From what I understand, IBR limits the amount you are required to pay, but does not forgive any of the loan (which actually means you are paying more in interest). Virginia's LRAP (VLFP) will help pay for your IBR payments based on income. At the end of 10 years, I will have kept on top of all my payments while contributing a total of just $22k $14k. However, over that 10 years, the actual amount of remaining debt+interest will be $26k - only about half the loan paid off $52k - essentially I would have just been paying off interest during those 10 years. Hypothetically, PLSF will forgive this remaining debt provided I maintain eligibility over 10 years and the whole deal is amazing. If I lose eligibility/government changes the program, however, I still have half my loan to repay after 10 years am worse off from when I started.

Under Virginia VLFP/IBR (Maximum Payment): Another option is to use Virginia's LRAP (VLFP) to supplement the minimum payment, but then contributing every spare cent to pay down the principal. Under this model, if I lived on pre-tax $40k/yr, I could pay off the total debt in 5 years and would pay approximately $52k (i.e. the full loan with almost all the interest covered by LRAP).

TL;DR: In other words, I could go to UVA for $22k but have $26k debt hanging over me if anything goes wrong (i.e. changes in the IBR/PSLF program or losing eligibility). Otherwise, I could go to Harvard for $46k with debt paid off in 10 years or pay it off in 5 years at UVA for $52k.

Am I missing something that makes these calculations completely off base? It almost seems like paying sticker with Harvard's LIPP is better from a financial perspective than full tuition with Virginia's VLFP.

What would you suggest?

[Captain Rodeo]

Have you checked out this thread http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5&t=211835

It's a great guide to LRAP from various law schools. The author, Twenty, also has some good stuff to say.

Also, I'm sure you've seen it, but H has an LIPP benefits calculator http://www.law.harvard.edu/apps/sfs/cal ... lipp-calc/ I'm guessing that's what you used?


It's baffling to think H could be cheaper at sticker in the long run, than V full ride. Did you include COL into your H COA? If you did the calculations correctly, however, you have your answer.

[MoMettaMonk]

.

[lzack]

I'm also deciding between a full-ride at UVA and no aid at Harvard for a PI career, so this thread is definitely of interest to me. I think your $51,000 estimate for UVA COL loans might be much too high. If you're planning to just get an apartment (COL in Charlottesville can be very cheap), and if you're planning to work over the summers (even if unpaid, UVA has funding for summer PI internships), I think you can get through three years at UVA with little more than half of that number in COL-related loans. That could change your calculations significantly if I'm right. Thoughts?

[Iuso]

Have you checked out this thread http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5&t=211835

It's a great guide to LRAP from various law schools. The author, Twenty, also has some good stuff to say.

Also, I'm sure you've seen it, but H has an LIPP benefits calculator http://www.law.harvard.edu/apps/sfs/cal ... lipp-calc/ I'm guessing that's what you used?

Thanks! Yes, I've been reading almost any of Twenty's threads on PI and LRAP I can find actually Good stuff.

I didn't use Harvard's LIPP calculator but rather just used the formula's they provide here: http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... index.html
This amounts to participant contributing 0% below $46k, 20% of what is made between $46-$52k, and 40% of anything made over $52k.

The thing about LIPP is that it's totally dependent on how much money you make and not on how much debt you have (up to total COA). So yes, if you're probably not going to make more than 70k a year over the ten years after law school, it's possible that you pay less in the end for Harvard than UVA.

What you are missing is how Harvard and UVA calculate household income. I have no idea if you plan to get married in the next 13 years, but if your spouse is a high earner that could affect your repayment amount.

Hmm…yes. Harvard counts half your joint income if your spouse makes more than you. I redid the LIPP numbers with some added income and basically for every extra $1000/year you earn, your total 10yr debt payment goes up by $4000. (Which makes sense, $1k over ten years is $10k, $4k is that 40%.) So if you go from $40k-$70k in ten years the total payments are $46k. If you go from $50k-$80k that goes up to $82k in debt payments. $60k-$90k is $122k in debt payments (over 10 years) and so on.
On the flip side, UVA's LRAP+IBR hovers at around $50k of total debt payments no matter which income progression I use. So it seems like the Harvard "break even" point is that $40k-$70k range over 10 years.

So I guess the next question would be, is that $40k-$70k range a reasonable expectation for PI? And does Harvard give any additional help with PI and/or big fed over UVA?

[Iuso]

Okay, so I was using the New America Foundation spreadsheet to calculate IBR and couldn't figure out how it was getting the numbers that it was telling me so I scrapped that and just did the formula from the Dept of Ed website (15% of difference between AGI and 150% poverty level, assuming single, no children). That changes the results for LRAP+IBR payments a bit. Instead of paying $14k and having $52k in remaining debt if not forgiven by PSLF, you pay $22k over 10 years but only have $26k in debt at the end of that. (Updated OP)

I'm also deciding between a full-ride at UVA and no aid at Harvard for a PI career, so this thread is definitely of interest to me. I think your $51,000 estimate for UVA COL loans might be much too high. If you're planning to just get an apartment (COL in Charlottesville can be very cheap), and if you're planning to work over the summers (even if unpaid, UVA has funding for summer PI internships), I think you can get through three years at UVA with little more than half of that number in COL-related loans. That could change your calculations significantly if I'm right. Thoughts?

I ran the same calculations using $30k COL instead of $51k. What I am getting is paying $13k in total w/ LRAP and paying the whole loan off in 8 years OR aggressively paying off the loan in 3 years but essentially paying ~$30k (LRAP ends up taking care of interest).

If you can do COL for $30k ($10k/yr) that seems like as long as you stayed in eligible employment for 8 years, regardless of PSLF, you would have paid everything off for only $13k. (Again, this is assuming the $40k-$70k salary range over 10 years).

[twenty]

Glad I've been able to help.

This is always a tricky scenario, and there's no 100% right answer. First off, good for you for doing a lot of research on this subject -- I've met kids at T14 schools who were gunning for PI that didn't even know what IBR was.

First off, to put it bluntly, I think you're wayyyyy underestimating your future income. Low end fed govt goes up to 100k after about 3-4 years post law school, and JAG is a kicking-enough deal to where when your housing and food is taken care of, you really have no business not putting a ton down on your loans. Commonwealth's offices in Virginia aren't fantastic when it comes to pay, but they should still start in the 65k range and jump up to 90k+ pretty quickly.

LIPP is great and all, but it's only going to save you from the really low-end of the PI spectrum (i.e, legal aid services). If you're making 70k/year or so with fedgov/JAG/DA (which is definitely not the exception here), you'll be paying 100k+ back on your loans through LIPP. Now, for some forms of PI/govt, the HLS advantage may be worth the extra 50-60k to you. If you were dead set on the DOJ/DOS or something, then maybe HLS would be worth the money. Personally, I'm not seeing it, but that's just me. I'd take the money at UVA.

[Iuso]

Glad I've been able to help.

This is always a tricky scenario, and there's no 100% right answer. First off, good for you for doing a lot of research on this subject -- I've met kids at T14 schools who were gunning for PI that didn't even know what IBR was.

First off, to put it bluntly, I think you're wayyyyy underestimating your future income. Low end fed govt goes up to 100k after about 3-4 years post law school, and JAG is a kicking-enough deal to where when your housing and food is taken care of, you really have no business not putting a ton down on your loans. Commonwealth's offices in Virginia aren't fantastic when it comes to pay, but they should still start in the 65k range and jump up to 90k+ pretty quickly.

LIPP is great and all, but it's only going to save you from the really low-end of the PI spectrum (i.e, legal aid services). If you're making 70k/year or so with fedgov/JAG/DA (which is definitely not the exception here), you'll be paying 100k+ back on your loans through LIPP. Now, for some forms of PI/govt, the HLS advantage may be worth the extra 50-60k to you. If you were dead set on the DOJ/DOS or something, then maybe HLS would be worth the money. Personally, I'm not seeing it, but that's just me. I'd take the money at UVA.

Thanks a bunch

While I trust you on the income numbers, I am not quite sure how that would work. I am looking at the GS scale and seeing entry level job descriptions at GS-10 or GS-11 ($46k and $51k respectively). Jumping up to $90k+ doesn't happen until step 9 of GS 13. Maybe I am just misunderstanding the GS scale promotion frequency, but I do not understand quite where I am getting the numbers wrong. What am I missing?

From the standpoint of opening doors, what jobs would you say HLS gives you an advantage for (if any)? Would that advantage only be for entry (i.e. before any work experience) or might it extend even after you have a few years of experience?

Really appreciate the comments everyone!

[twenty]

While I trust you on the income numbers, I am not quite sure how that would work. I am looking at the GS scale and seeing entry level job descriptions at GS-10 or GS-11 ($46k and $51k respectively). Jumping up to $90k+ doesn't happen until step 9 of GS 13. Maybe I am just misunderstanding the GS scale promotion frequency, but I do not understand quite where I am getting the numbers wrong. What am I missing?

Heh, you're looking at base pay, not base + locality. Here's the base + locality pay for Washington DC metro area. As you can see, it's significantly higher.

Furthermore, the GS scale is kind of funky in that you don't go up single grades/steps each year. Your first year out of law school you'd be a GS-9 (step 1), your second year you'd be a GS 11/1, your third year you'd be a GS 12/1. fourth 13/1, fifth 14/1, sixth 14/2, seventh 14/3, etc. A lot of agencies go up to GS 15, but most of the low-prestige ones go to GS 14.

[sprezz]

I'm also deciding between a full-ride at UVA and no aid at Harvard for a PI career, so this thread is definitely of interest to me. I think your $51,000 estimate for UVA COL loans might be much too high. If you're planning to just get an apartment (COL in Charlottesville can be very cheap), and if you're planning to work over the summers (even if unpaid, UVA has funding for summer PI internships), I think you can get through three years at UVA with little more than half of that number in COL-related loans. That could change your calculations significantly if I'm right. Thoughts?

51k is high, but it's hard to say how high because even in a low col area like cville students have different preferences as far as what their standard of living value curve is. even on the chill end of that curve, to get below 30k (while gunning for PI) you're probably banking on hitting both 1L and 2L PILA grants for a total bonus of ~$10k (less tax). note though [and this is the only reason i'm posting here] that PILA grants aren't guaranteed. you gotta gun for them 1L fall and then christmas break to guarantee that 1L grant. this doesn't seem to be a problem for true PI gunners because they always seem to hit the ground running, but ~*the more you know*~