University of Wisconsin - Madison Forum

[Seraphym]

Hello everyone,

I'm just going to cut to the chase. For the last two years, I've been rolling around the idea of attending law school. It was my original goal after I graduated in Dec 2011, but I abandoned it because I have been an avid follower of the scam movement for that time. My pre-law adviser introduced me to it and I decided it would just be best to wait. In the meantime, I decided to continue studying for a second try at the LSAT because my first attempt was just awful. I'll be honest, I went in arrogant and assumed I'd do just fine. Nope, ended up with a 149. I retook the LSAT in June 2013 and ended up with a 167.

I'll be honest. I'd like to stay in Wisconsin, so I applied to Madison and got accepted with a 50% scholarship. My goals are to end up in prosecution, but I think if I take a little longer I can cross that threshold and end up with at least a 170. It's worth trying anyway. However, the issue at hand here is as follows. I've got independent level undergraduate debt - exactly $57,500. By my calculations, a partial scholarship, even if I kept it for three years, would add at least another $50,000 to that in tuition and living expenses. Even a full ride could add as much as $30,000 in living expenses and that would be nearly double what an entry level prosecutor makes.

I've been toying with the idea of taking a different approach to this goal and becoming a peace officer as well. I'll simply need to run myself through the academy here, practically no WI departments will hire without it, but that lingering desire to go at it from the attorney side just remains. Realistically, have I already indebted myself past the point of a full-ride being worth it? I ask this because, as a lurker on this forum, it seems many people focus on what will be added to existing debt. Yet, mine is already kind of significant.

Feel free to be as brutally honest as possible. That brutal honest was precisely what kept me from making the plunge as long as it has and it's precisely that type of honesty that will keep me from doing so if it's just a bad idea all around.

Thanks!

[northwood]

If you are not fully committed with the thought of practicing law, then do not go to law school, especially if you have to take out loans to do so. If you want to become a cop- then go through the academy and see how that plays out before committing to law school.

[McAvoy]

You're in a situation where UW definitely makes sense and is reasonably priced. However, that's only the case when you're not going in with a serious debt load. You're playing Russian Roulette going to UW with the intent of graduating with over 100k in debt.

What was your GPA? If it's below median, they're probably not going to boost your scholarship with a retake improvement.

I would say to find a job for a year or two and get rid of your outstanding debt. You barely have a 60% chance of being employed as a lawyer upon graduation from UW, and a big part of that group is in small law making 40K. Entry level state government positions barely make more than that. You're not going to be able to pay off 100K reasonably, and PSLF might be dead once you graduate.

tl;dr: Too big a risk, IMO. If you have other career interests, explore those -- law school will still be there if you don't like them.

[Seraphym]

You're in a situation where UW definitely makes sense and is reasonably priced. However, that's only the case when you're not going in with a serious debt load. You're playing Russian Roulette going to UW with the intent of graduating with over 100k in debt.

What was your GPA? If it's below median, they're probably not going to boost your scholarship with a Good luck! Follow your dreams! improvement.

I would say to find a job for a year or two and get rid of your outstanding debt. You barely have a 60% chance of being employed as a lawyer upon graduation from UW, and a big part of that group is in small law making 40K. Entry level state government positions barely make more than that. You're not going to be able to pay off 100K reasonably, and PSLF might be dead once you graduate.

tl;dr: Too big a risk, IMO. If you have other career interests, explore those -- law school will still be there if you don't like them.

My GPA wasn't phenomenal: 3.56. My research suggests I am precisely at the median. By my alma mater's standards, that is magna cum laude status. The overwhelming majority of my classes were A's. It only took the hit it did due to a car accident and my stubbornness about continuing on with the semester anyway in my sophomore year. Poor choice. I would have been much better off withdrawing for that entire semester, but I didn't listen.

This is precisely the advice I was looking for though. I had a feeling I already had too much debt to jump straight into the law school game, even if I ended up with a full-ride, so it's probably best I pursue my alternative option. Around here, police officers make about $40,000 starting out so that was another issue that kept me from taking the plunge. Do I stick with the credentials I've got and make $40,000 on one side of law enforcement, or go to law school with nearly $100,000 in debt, getting paid almost the same salary on the other side. Sometimes, you just need to hear it from someone else too.

[timbs4339]

You've got a tough pickle- even if this recent PSLF proposal passes, then your current debt would still be forgiven in 10 years if you became a police officer. If you go to law school, you're taking the risk of coming out with much higher debt, probably the same or slightly higher salary, and no 10-year forgiveness for half of the debt.

You just don't sound that enthused about being a prosecutor, though. You seem like a smart person who can probably rise pretty high in the department after awhile, and higher ranked PO's + OT will be pulling down a lot more money than mid-career government lawyers. Of course, law school will always be there in the future too, while I'm not sure many law enforcement agencies would jump to hire a JD in a non-lawyer capacity.

[Seraphym]

You've got a tough pickle- even if this recent PSLF proposal passes, then your current debt would still be forgiven in 10 years if you became a police officer. If you go to law school, you're taking the risk of coming out with much higher debt, probably the same or slightly higher salary, and no 10-year forgiveness for half of the debt.

You just don't sound that enthused about being a prosecutor, though. You seem like a smart person who can probably rise pretty high in the department after awhile, and higher ranked PO's + OT will be pulling down a lot more money than mid-career government lawyers. Of course, law school will always be there in the future too, while I'm not sure many law enforcement agencies would jump to hire a JD in a non-lawyer capacity.

I don't know that I'd go far enough to say I'm not enthused about it. I'll admit that, like many special snowflakes, I don't entirely know what a lawyer does. I've never worked in a law office, that's for sure. I suppose that you may be right that, in some capacity, I'm simply interested in law enforcement. Still, I want to clarify that what really pushes me from the entire idea of law school is precisely the predicament you've elaborated on. Why go if my salary won't be much better than where I'd be sitting as a police officer, yet the debt will effectively double? Living expenses have to be paid, even with a free ride, and I don't really have a way to do that without saving plenty of money beforehand or adding on some student loans.

An additional issue is that, honestly, PLSF isn't even remotely on my radar because deciding that I will want to remain in public service for at least 10 years is a pretty big "if". It'd be one thing if we were talking about something that required years of commitment, like a military officer for example (which I hear that the up-or-out system often complicates). I simply don't feel that, as a 25 year old, I know entirely what I'd like to be doing by the time I am 34/35. I can safely say I'd like to be involved as a prosecutor or police officer, but if you asked me when I was 18, I'd have retorted that I'd like to be a chemist. That's the more significant hurdle, the debt and no guarantee I can service it. I keep coming across horror stories of people who eventually want out of the law, yet have no alternatives because their debt is too massive. Even those who absolutely hate military service can look forward to the fact that they've got "-insert amount of years of active/reserve and inactive duty" before they can escape. I've come across very few lawyers who can claim something similar, practically anyway.

[timbs4339]

You've got a tough pickle- even if this recent PSLF proposal passes, then your current debt would still be forgiven in 10 years if you became a police officer. If you go to law school, you're taking the risk of coming out with much higher debt, probably the same or slightly higher salary, and no 10-year forgiveness for half of the debt.

You just don't sound that enthused about being a prosecutor, though. You seem like a smart person who can probably rise pretty high in the department after awhile, and higher ranked PO's + OT will be pulling down a lot more money than mid-career government lawyers. Of course, law school will always be there in the future too, while I'm not sure many law enforcement agencies would jump to hire a JD in a non-lawyer capacity.

I don't know that I'd go far enough to say I'm not enthused about it. I'll admit that, like many special snowflakes, I don't entirely know what a lawyer does. I've never worked in a law office, that's for sure. I suppose that you may be right that, in some capacity, I'm simply interested in law enforcement. Still, I want to clarify that what really pushes me from the entire idea of law school is precisely the predicament you've elaborated on. Why go if my salary won't be much better than where I'd be sitting as a police officer, yet the debt will effectively double? Living expenses have to be paid, even with a free ride, and I don't really have a way to do that without saving plenty of money beforehand or adding on some student loans.

An additional issue is that, honestly, PLSF isn't even remotely on my radar because deciding that I will want to remain in public service for at least 10 years is a pretty big "if". It'd be one thing if we were talking about something that required years of commitment, like a military officer for example (which I hear that the up-or-out system often complicates). I simply don't feel that, as a 25 year old, I know entirely what I'd like to be doing by the time I am 34/35. I can safely say I'd like to be involved as a prosecutor or police officer, but if you asked me when I was 18, I'd have retorted that I'd like to be a chemist. That's the more significant hurdle, the debt and no guarantee I can service it. I keep coming across horror stories of people who eventually want out of the law, yet have no alternatives because their debt is too massive. Even those who absolutely hate military service can look forward to the fact that they've got "-insert amount of years of active/reserve and inactive duty" before they can escape. I've come across very few lawyers who can claim something similar, practically anyway.

If you decide to go the law school route I'd seriously think about deferring a bit and trying to find a pre-law school job in a DA office. Prosecution work is mentally tough and they screen for commitment during the interviews. People who decide to become DAs are thrown right into the deep end- misdemeanor trials on day 1 is standard fare. Unlike working for biglaw, it's not the type of job where you say "eh, I'll give this a try for a bit and see how it works out."

Assume a starting salary of 40-65K for law school.

[sconnielaw13]

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