Stanford (sticker) vs Duke ($$$) Forum

[redsox]

Hi, tls. Thanks for all the help over the years. I'd appreciate opinions on the final aspect of this process...where should I go? To make your decision easier, I've narrowed it to two choices: Stanford at sticker or Duke with a full tuition scholarship. A significant amount will not be financed with loans, so the costs I listed below assume that I am not accruing interest on some of the cost. I'd be lying if I said that prestige wasn't a factor - I chased the money and went to undergrad at a school I didn't really want to attend, and though it was the right decision, I don't know if I want to do it twice.

The schools you are considering: Stanford, Duke

The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each:
Stanford: ~$285,000
Duke: ~$75,000

How you will be financing your COA? For Duke, savings would cover it. For Stanford, it will be a combination of savings and loans.

Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any): From Massachusetts, went to undergrad and worked in Boston. Don't necessarily want to come back here but would like it to be an option. If not Boston, almost certainly DC or New York. When it comes down to it, I can't imagine ending up somewhere other than the northeast.

Your general career goals: Probably Biglaw at the start, interested in doing a clerkship (again, would like it to be an option). Imagine myself eventually taking a pay cut and going in-house somewhere to achieve some semblance of a work-life balance. Also somewhat interested in academia.

Your LSAT/GPA numbers: 171/3.89

How many times you have taken the LSAT: Once, and I'm not going to...Good luck! Follow your dreams!

Columbia (no offer yet), NYU ($50k), Penn ($90k), NU($155k) are all options and I'm riding out the Harvard waitlist, but at this point I'm pretty sure it's between Stanford and Duke.

[Winston1984]

Unless you have to have a clerkship (which you still aren't guaranteed one from Stanford) I like Duke here. A ~$200,000 price difference for someone who wants biglaw doesn't make sense. Congrats on the choices!

[sublime]

..

[jbagelboy]

Your goals sound just like 80% of incoming T14 law students to me, so nothing overly niche that a Stanford degree would be required for.

Graduating debt free from Duke (albeit spending a hefty amount of your family's savings) sounds pretty swell. If you are fine targeting NYC big law, Duke takes the edge here IMO. If you really need California, PNW, or another tricky market then Stanford is very justified. Sounds to me like you are pretty open right now though, so the lack of debt may prove less constraining than the added opportunities.

Weather is pretty great at either school, compared to HCC.

[redsox]

Thanks guys. I'm generally leaning towards Stanford, I guess for two reasons:

1) I really do like the idea of academia (I just don't think it's likely enough from either school to actually consider it my "goal" or "plan"), and Stanford seems like a significantly better place for that.

2) I think I'd probably do well enough at Duke to grab a biglaw job - but I think I'd worry a lot less at Stanford. Between the Honors/Pass grading system and how much deeper into the class biglaw hiring goes, it seems like I'd have a more relaxed few years there than at Duke.

Are those worth $200,000? Shit, I don't know. If it was all debt? Probably not. But it won't all be debt (if I get biglaw from Stanford I expect that I'll have the debt paid off in about two years).

[cotiger]

If this is even a question for you, then perceived prestige is clearly the overriding concern an you should pick Stanford.

[aboutmydaylight]

What is your debt financed COA?

[redsox]

What is your debt financed COA?

As in total debt at beginning of repayment if I took loans for everything instead of using savings? Around $85k at Duke, over $300k at Stanford.

[redsox]

If this is even a question for you, then perceived prestige is clearly the overriding concern an you should pick Stanford.

Is there some sort of 12-step program for prestige whores?

[aboutmydaylight]

What is your debt financed COA?

As in total debt at beginning of repayment if I took loans for everything instead of using savings? Around $85k at Duke, over $300k at Stanford.

No, as in, how much debt will you have at repayment from both schools?

[redsox]

What is your debt financed COA?

As in total debt at beginning of repayment if I took loans for everything instead of using savings? Around $85k at Duke, over $300k at Stanford.

No, as in, how much debt will you have at repayment from both schools?

Got it.
Stanford: ~$95,000
Duke: $0 (with some money still in the bank)

[cotiger]

Let me clarify my position:

You are targeting the easiest market to get, with a vague desire for a one-year position that sounds kinda cool/prestigious that you will likely not even get from Stanford (also only like 15% of the class more than Duke). Another vague desire for academia that again you are unlikely to get and also unlikely to actually pursue.

If $200,000 plus interest on that 95k plus the prospect of graduating completely debt-free with significant money (100k?) in the bank vs six-figure loans doesn't even make you lean Duke, then your stated desire for prestige in the eyes of others is truly calling the shots, and you will always regret it if you don't.

[PrideandGlory1776]

Duke is TCR for your particular situation

[aboutmydaylight]

Let me clarify my position:

You are targeting the easiest market to get, with a vague desire for a one-year position that sounds kinda cool/prestigious that you will likely not even get from Stanford (also only like 15% of the class more than Duke). Another vague desire for academia that again you are unlikely to get and also unlikely to actually pursue.

If $200,000 plus interest plus the prospect of graduating completely debt-free vs six-figure loans doesn't even make you lean Duke, then your stated desire for prestige in the eyes of others is truly calling the shots, and you will always regret it if you don't.

Not that I disagree with you but Stanford is nearly 30% clerkship numbers. Even though odds are against him getting it, that's a pretty significant chunk of the class. Not to mention people that clerk later down the road. If someone has a serious desire to clerk, this makes a big difference.

[aboutmydaylight]

What is your debt financed COA?

As in total debt at beginning of repayment if I took loans for everything instead of using savings? Around $85k at Duke, over $300k at Stanford.

No, as in, how much debt will you have at repayment from both schools?

Got it.
Stanford: ~$95,000
Duke: $0 (with some money still in the bank)

I mean 95k debt at Stanford is great. But 0 at Duke looks even better.

[DrStudMuffin]

Let me clarify my position:

You are targeting the easiest market to get, with a vague desire for a one-year position that sounds kinda cool/prestigious that you will likely not even get from Stanford (also only like 15% of the class more than Duke). Another vague desire for academia that again you are unlikely to get and also unlikely to actually pursue.

If $200,000 plus interest plus the prospect of graduating completely debt-free vs six-figure loans doesn't even make you lean Duke, then your stated desire for prestige in the eyes of others is truly calling the shots, and you will always regret it if you don't.

Not that I disagree with you but Stanford is nearly 30% clerkship numbers. Even though odds are against him getting it, that's a pretty significant chunk of the class. Not to mention people that clerk later down the road. If someone has a serious desire to clerk, this makes a big difference.

Including alums, over 35 percent of Stanford's class has clerked over the last 4 years on average. Even removing state clerkships (2-3 percent per year), that's about a third of the class.

http://www.law.stanford.edu/careers/pro ... clerkships

At 95k in loans, I think it would be shortsighted to take Duke. People do still strike out bidding NYC at Duke, whereas median at SLS is a very good place to be. If you add OP's desire to get back to Boston to the mix, that only strengthens the argument for SLS.

I will add that if you were completely debt financing this adventure, my answer would probably be different.

[redsox]

Let me clarify my position:

You are targeting the easiest market to get, with a vague desire for a one-year position that sounds kinda cool/prestigious that you will likely not even get from Stanford (also only like 15% of the class more than Duke). Another vague desire for academia that again you are unlikely to get and also unlikely to actually pursue.

If $200,000 plus interest on that 95k plus the prospect of graduating completely debt-free with significant money (100k?) in the bank vs six-figure loans doesn't even make you lean Duke, then your stated desire for prestige in the eyes of others is truly calling the shots, and you will always regret it if you don't.

I do get where you're coming from. I think Duke is the obvious...smart choice. The only think I'd object to is the "prestige in the eyes of others" bit. I'm not really worried about what others think (well, beyond whether they'll hire me or not). It's more...looking back at things knowing I surrounded myself with the best professors and most accomplished peers. I can't say that about undergrad, and taking the scholarship money instead of loans for an ivy was the right call then. I'm just not sure I want to do it now. I think a couple years of biglaw slavery might be worth being able to look back and know I went to the best school I could - even if the clerkship/academia thing never pans out.

[d cooper]

There was a 17.6% difference between these schools for Biglaw + FedClerk in the most recent round of data. That's as big of a margin as the T14 vs. the regionals. S is in a different stratosphere.

I think $95,000 for that alone is perfectly justifiable, especially since you have a strong desire to clerk. Add to that the fact that Stanford at the very least does not effectively close the door forever on academia like Duke does, and I think you should feel pretty comfortable picking S over D.

[jbagelboy]

Let me clarify my position:

You are targeting the easiest market to get, with a vague desire for a one-year position that sounds kinda cool/prestigious that you will likely not even get from Stanford (also only like 15% of the class more than Duke). Another vague desire for academia that again you are unlikely to get and also unlikely to actually pursue.

If $200,000 plus interest on that 95k plus the prospect of graduating completely debt-free with significant money (100k?) in the bank vs six-figure loans doesn't even make you lean Duke, then your stated desire for prestige in the eyes of others is truly calling the shots, and you will always regret it if you don't.

I do get where you're coming from. I think Duke is the obvious...smart choice. The only think I'd object to is the "prestige in the eyes of others" bit. I'm not really worried about what others think (well, beyond whether they'll hire me or not). It's more...looking back at things knowing I surrounded myself with the best professors and most accomplished peers. I can't say that about undergrad, and taking the scholarship money instead of loans for an ivy was the right call then. I'm just not sure I want to do it now. I think a couple years of biglaw slavery might be worth being able to look back and know I went to the best school I could - even if the clerkship/academia thing never pans out.

Again, I can totally see taking stanford for $95k debt over duke. Thats a very fair choice. But not for this reason.

[rayiner]

There was a 17.6% difference between these schools for Biglaw + FedClerk in the most recent round of data. That's as big of a margin as the T14 vs. the regionals. S is in a different stratosphere.

I think $95,000 for that alone is perfectly justifiable, especially since you have a strong desire to clerk. Add to that the fact that Stanford at the very least does not effectively close the door forever on academia like Duke does, and I think you should feel pretty comfortable picking S over D.

But its not $95k. Its over $200k. Its idiotic to pretend that money taken out of savings to pay for LS doesn't count.

[PrideandGlory1776]

There was a 17.6% difference between these schools for Biglaw + FedClerk in the most recent round of data. That's as big of a margin as the T14 vs. the regionals. S is in a different stratosphere.

I think $95,000 for that alone is perfectly justifiable, especially since you have a strong desire to clerk. Add to that the fact that Stanford at the very least does not effectively close the door forever on academia like Duke does, and I think you should feel pretty comfortable picking S over D.

But its not $95k. Its over $200k. Its idiotic to pretend that money taken out of savings to pay for LS doesn't count.

He's right about this - Duke is the TCR as said above.

[redsox]

There was a 17.6% difference between these schools for Biglaw + FedClerk in the most recent round of data. That's as big of a margin as the T14 vs. the regionals. S is in a different stratosphere.

I think $95,000 for that alone is perfectly justifiable, especially since you have a strong desire to clerk. Add to that the fact that Stanford at the very least does not effectively close the door forever on academia like Duke does, and I think you should feel pretty comfortable picking S over D.

But its not $95k. Its over $200k. Its idiotic to pretend that money taken out of savings to pay for LS doesn't count.

Well...I wouldn't say it doesn't count. But a dollar of lost savings is certainly worth less to me at this point in my life than a dollar of debt. The loss of freedom associated with student debt is much different than the loss of freedom associated with lack of savings. I'm not sure how to quantify the difference.

EDIT: We're also talking mostly about savings in a 401k which I can get out penalty free and in a low tax bracket since I'll be in school. Otherwise I can't touch it for 40 years. I have plenty of time for my retirement savings to recover. This makes the savings dollars even more attractive than debt dollars. Unless you think the tax characteristics of money in a 401k outweigh that and make these dollars even more costly for me to use. But at this point in my life, I disagree. I have 40 years to get hit by a car and make the retirement money worthless.

[mtn663]

Stanford: ~$95,000
Duke: $0 (with some money still in the bank)

OP, I made a decision btw CCN and DCN with pretty similar debt-at-graduation numbers and picked CCN. The only thing I regret is that I'm not terribly excited about having to repay loans; my real interests aren't in firm practice, but the looming repayments have become more real. I had similar concerns to you--I went with the low cost undergrad option and told myself I'd go to the best place I could for LS. From an academic and experience perspective, I haven't regretted it at all, and I think there are certain goals that my school will set me up for that DCN wouldn't have to the same extent.

In your case, S obviously >> CCN, and you seem to want to actually practice, meaning you won't feel like you're forcing yourself to do so just to pay down the debt... so I vote S. But you won't make a wrong choice.

[DportIA]

If this is even a question for you, then perceived prestige is clearly the overriding concern an you should pick Stanford.

Is there some sort of 12-step program for prestige whores?

Looking at your debt balance while still in law school.

Go with the full scholarship.

[Winston1984]

There was a 17.6% difference between these schools for Biglaw + FedClerk in the most recent round of data. That's as big of a margin as the T14 vs. the regionals. S is in a different stratosphere.

I think $95,000 for that alone is perfectly justifiable, especially since you have a strong desire to clerk. Add to that the fact that Stanford at the very least does not effectively close the door forever on academia like Duke does, and I think you should feel pretty comfortable picking S over D.

But its not $95k. Its over $200k. Its idiotic to pretend that money taken out of savings to pay for LS doesn't count.

I agree with this. There seems to be this weird TLS belief that depleting savings is nbd. That's money you could invest, purchase a car, downpayment on a home, etc. I just can't see SLS being worth $200k more in this situation. Because it is $200k difference not $95k.