Top Law Schools

The schools you are considering: Duke (90k), Penn (??k), Chicago (45k)
The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each
Duke: $161,569
Penn: $283,776 (sticker)
Chicago: $224,954
(Edited for better accuracy)

How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
Plan A: Get adopted by a rich family at this point and go to school for free
Plan B: Loans, completely (outside scholarship amounts)

Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
From the South (particularly ATL). Probably want to work Big law in the SE. Significant ties to Georgia and Texas.

Your general career goals
SE Biglaw (preferably w/ 1-year Clerkship and deferral to firm)>>Biglaw Anywhere>>Small Law in SE>>Small Law Anywhere

Your LSAT/GPA numbers
169 (once)/4.0

Other Options: Vandy (110k), Emory (114k), Texas (108k), UGA (37.5k), Alabama (109k)

Waitlisted: UVA, Harvard

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Trying to figure out where to go at this point...and I feel like Duke is a clear winner here. But I have some reservations and wonder if Chicago is worth 45k extra. I also wonder how much I'd need to get at Penn to make it worth it over Duke.

Thanks! I know these schools have been talked about at length, but I appreciate any advice on my particular situation.

I feel like you should retake given your amazing GPA.

Definitely Plan A.

Failing that, Duke - cheapest option and best for your goals.

jbagelboy wrote:Definitely Plan A.

Failing that, Duke - cheapest option and best for your goals.

More or less agree, but depending on how much you prepped for LSAT, a retake could get you substantially more $$ at Duke/UVA or into HLS. also I'd think HLS is probably the best law school for Plan A though I don't have the numbers in front of me.

Retake for HYS + $$$ from CCN.

Failing that, Duke.

Duke or retake.

Thanks for the responses so far! Anyone who picked Chicago want to elaborate on why?

In terms of retake- I'm happy with my score and the options I have, but I do get the idea behind it. Thanks.

KatyMarie wrote:Thanks for the responses so far! Anyone who picked Chicago want to elaborate on why?

In terms of retake- I'm happy with my score and the options I have, but I do get the idea behind it. Thanks.

Some people probably think that $45k is not too big of a difference but honestly Chicago only places 2% in fed clerkships and 5% more into biglaw than does Duke. It's also really more than $45k because Chicago is already fairly significantly more expensive for CoL.

I think retake is the best shot since you can get HYS with a couple more points but if not, Duke is the best option. If Penn is close in $ to Duke, I think Penn becomes the best option.

Can't really go wrong with any of these.

nebula666 wrote:

KatyMarie wrote:Thanks for the responses so far! Anyone who picked Chicago want to elaborate on why?

In terms of retake- I'm happy with my score and the options I have, but I do get the idea behind it. Thanks.

Some people probably think that $45k is not too big of a difference but honestly Chicago only places 2% in fed clerkships and 5% more into biglaw than does Duke. It's also really more than $45k because Chicago is already fairly significantly more expensive for CoL.

I think retake is the best shot since you can get HYS with a couple more points but if not, Duke is the best option. If Penn is close in $ to Duke, I think Penn becomes the best option.

Can't really go wrong with any of these.

Thanks. That makes sense in terms of the difference between Chicago and Duke. Hope Penn gets back soon so I can see where that option lies.

In terms of HLS- In the off chance that I get accepted off the HLS waitlist, does Harvard at sticker become my best option? I felt like Duke with $$ for Biglaw in the SE would be a better choice over Harvard sticker (since I'm not after academia, or a notoriously difficult market etc), but I'm not sure! I feel like I should have a plan of what to do in the case of an acceptance though.

KatyMarie wrote:

nebula666 wrote:

KatyMarie wrote:Thanks for the responses so far! Anyone who picked Chicago want to elaborate on why?

In terms of retake- I'm happy with my score and the options I have, but I do get the idea behind it. Thanks.

Some people probably think that $45k is not too big of a difference but honestly Chicago only places 2% in fed clerkships and 5% more into biglaw than does Duke. It's also really more than $45k because Chicago is already fairly significantly more expensive for CoL.

I think retake is the best shot since you can get HYS with a couple more points but if not, Duke is the best option. If Penn is close in $ to Duke, I think Penn becomes the best option.

Can't really go wrong with any of these.

Thanks. That makes sense in terms of the difference between Chicago and Duke. Hope Penn gets back soon so I can see where that option lies.

In terms of HLS- In the off chance that I get accepted off the HLS waitlist, does Harvard at sticker become my best option? I felt like Duke with $$ for Biglaw in the SE would be a better choice over Harvard sticker (since I'm not after academia, or a notoriously difficult market etc), but I'm not sure! I feel like I should have a plan of what to do in the case of an acceptance though.

Harvard is not worth $130k (plus further accumulated interest while paying it back) more than Duke. Especially not for biglaw in the SE.

KatyMarie wrote:

nebula666 wrote:

KatyMarie wrote:Thanks for the responses so far! Anyone who picked Chicago want to elaborate on why?

In terms of retake- I'm happy with my score and the options I have, but I do get the idea behind it. Thanks.

Some people probably think that $45k is not too big of a difference but honestly Chicago only places 2% in fed clerkships and 5% more into biglaw than does Duke. It's also really more than $45k because Chicago is already fairly significantly more expensive for CoL.

I think retake is the best shot since you can get HYS with a couple more points but if not, Duke is the best option. If Penn is close in $ to Duke, I think Penn becomes the best option.

Can't really go wrong with any of these.

Thanks. That makes sense in terms of the difference between Chicago and Duke. Hope Penn gets back soon so I can see where that option lies.

In terms of HLS- In the off chance that I get accepted off the HLS waitlist, does Harvard at sticker become my best option? I felt like Duke with $$ for Biglaw in the SE would be a better choice over Harvard sticker (since I'm not after academia, or a notoriously difficult market etc), but I'm not sure! I feel like I should have a plan of what to do in the case of an acceptance though.

I think nebula may be understating Chicago's placement edge here, but since that advantage doesn't extend to your target market it hardly matters.

Harvard offers superiority in Florida and Texas, but Duke commands a lot of respect in other southern markets. I would negotiate with Dean Hoye and increase your scholarship to $90K+ in the event of an H acceptance.

KatyMarie wrote:Thanks for the responses so far! Anyone who picked Chicago want to elaborate on why?

In terms of retake- I'm happy with my score and the options I have, but I do get the idea behind it. Thanks.

Then you're an idiot. Nobody should be happy with first take that isn't 173+. Because you can almost always go up 2-3 points with another retry or two, and in the 167-170 range that means $100k in scholarship money. When else are you going to get $100k just for taking a lousy test over again? If you can find a real job in the meantime, it'll even make you more employable.

And yes, I know you'll have to ask your parents permission to put off law school a year. Just sack up and do it. Your parents are clueless anyway, ignore them from now on. Listen to us.

aboutmydaylight wrote:Duke or retake.

TCR

rayiner wrote:

KatyMarie wrote:Thanks for the responses so far! Anyone who picked Chicago want to elaborate on why?

In terms of retake- I'm happy with my score and the options I have, but I do get the idea behind it. Thanks.

Then you're an idiot. Nobody should be happy with first take that isn't 173+. Because you can almost always go up 2-3 points with another retry or two, and in the 167-170 range that means $100k in scholarship money. When else are you going to get $100k just for taking a lousy test over again? If you can find a real job in the meantime, it'll even make you more employable.

And yes, I know you'll have to ask your parents permission to put off law school a year. Just sack up and do it. Your parents are clueless anyway, ignore them from now on. Listen to us.

Does being an asshole on the internet seriously make you feel better about yourself?

I'm currently employed in a "real job." It ends in August. My parents have nothing to do with this...I'll have to ask my "parents permission to put off law school a year"? What does that even mean. I put myself through undergrad and I'm currently working and paying my own way. Moving back in with my parents is not an option in my case. If you have the ability to move back in with your parents or to get some kind of monetary support from your family, that's great for you, not everyone has the same luxury as you do. If you want to say "retake is your only option here," fine, do that. But you don't have to get on here and insult my family and me for no reason.

jbagelboy wrote:

KatyMarie wrote:

nebula666 wrote:

KatyMarie wrote:Thanks for the responses so far! Anyone who picked Chicago want to elaborate on why?

In terms of retake- I'm happy with my score and the options I have, but I do get the idea behind it. Thanks.

Some people probably think that $45k is not too big of a difference but honestly Chicago only places 2% in fed clerkships and 5% more into biglaw than does Duke. It's also really more than $45k because Chicago is already fairly significantly more expensive for CoL.

I think retake is the best shot since you can get HYS with a couple more points but if not, Duke is the best option. If Penn is close in $ to Duke, I think Penn becomes the best option.

Can't really go wrong with any of these.

Thanks. That makes sense in terms of the difference between Chicago and Duke. Hope Penn gets back soon so I can see where that option lies.

In terms of HLS- In the off chance that I get accepted off the HLS waitlist, does Harvard at sticker become my best option? I felt like Duke with $$ for Biglaw in the SE would be a better choice over Harvard sticker (since I'm not after academia, or a notoriously difficult market etc), but I'm not sure! I feel like I should have a plan of what to do in the case of an acceptance though.

I think nebula may be understating Chicago's placement edge here, but since that advantage doesn't extend to your target market it hardly matters.

Harvard offers superiority in Florida and Texas, but Duke commands a lot of respect in other southern markets. I would negotiate with Dean Hoye and increase your scholarship to $90K+ in the event of an H acceptance.

Wouldn't it be too late at that point since I'll have deposited at Duke by the time I got an acceptance from Harvard? I was originally hoping to use an HYS acceptance (in the event I got one) to negotiate money with other T14 schools, but I'm not sure how late in the game I'd be able to use that.

Penn followed by Chicago.

Jackie U wrote:Penn followed by Chicago.

Care to expand on that one a little? (Just very different from the other advice I'm getting)

Jackie U wrote:Penn followed by Chicago.

I believe that goes against TLS common wisdom significantly. Penn at 90k more than Duke for southeastern biglaw? Duke gives a respectable chance at NYC biglaw. If Duke didn't give OP that (plausible) backup option, then I could maybe understand Penn here.

Katie: you don't have to withdraw from waitlists when you deposit at a school. If you were to get off the WL at another school, you could then come back to Duke (or whichever other school) and return to negotiations. It's one of the few areas applicants have an upper hand with leverage in this process.

As for the poster who advocates Penn, they are probably relying on signaling from a few New York firms, not your actual goals.

jbagelboy wrote:Katie: you don't have to withdraw from waitlists when you deposit at a school. If you were to get off the WL at another school, you could then come back to Duke (or whichever other school) and return to negotiations. It's one of the few areas applicants have an upper hand with leverage in this process.

As for the poster who advocates Penn, they are probably relying on signaling from a few New York firms, not your actual goals.

Right. Awesome! I had no idea that schools would even continue to negotiate after Deposit deadlines.

Got it...I'm definitely leaning Duke at this point. It'd be nice to stay relatively close to where my ties are anyway

KatyMarie wrote:

Jackie U wrote:Penn followed by Chicago.

Care to expand on that one a little? (Just very different from the other advice I'm getting)

Not much to explain. Employment wise Penn and Chicago are no brainers. Duke is fine. Not sold that Duke is better in the south for placement. They might be, just not all that knowledgeable about Duke. That’s why I posted Penn and Chicago.

Jackie U wrote:

KatyMarie wrote:

Jackie U wrote:Penn followed by Chicago.

Care to expand on that one a little? (Just very different from the other advice I'm getting)

Not much to explain. Employment wise Penn and Chicago are no brainers. Duke is fine. Not sold that Duke is better in the south for placement. They might be, just not all that knowledgeable about Duke. That’s why I posted Penn and Chicago.

Do you know about $90k?

Jackie U wrote:

KatyMarie wrote:

Jackie U wrote:Penn followed by Chicago.

Care to expand on that one a little? (Just very different from the other advice I'm getting)

Not much to explain. Employment wise Penn and Chicago are no brainers. Duke is fine. Not sold that Duke is better in the south for placement. They might be, just not all that knowledgeable about Duke. That’s why I posted Penn and Chicago.

If you do well at Penn or Chicago, you can land SE BigLaw from either of those, but SE BigLaw knows (and loves) Duke. Duke already has an established pipeline to SE BigLaw through OCI and alumni that doesn't exist for either Penn or Chicago. I think it would be a mistake to take PC over D given OP's goals.

Harvard is not worth $130k (plus further accumulated interest while paying it back) more than Duke. Especially not for biglaw in the SE.

I would disagree with this. SE BigLaw is extremely grade-conscious except for HYS. If you want to land Atl BigLaw (which I assume we're talking about, as SE BigLaw is really Atl BigLaw plus a few other national firms with offices in random other SE cities), you'll likely need to be around top third at Duke. From Harvard, you could likely get Atl BigLaw from below median.

Having said that, re-take would be wise. 1 point would make you competitive for H, and two points would make you close to a lock.

KatyMarie wrote:

rayiner wrote:

KatyMarie wrote:Thanks for the responses so far! Anyone who picked Chicagyourenlitorate on why?

In terms of retake- I'm happy with my score and the options I have, but I do get the idea behind it. Thanks.

Then you're an idiot. Nobody should be happy with first take that isn't 173+. Because you can almost always go up 2-3 points with another retry or two, and in the 167-170 range that means $100k in scholarship money. When else are you going to get $100k just for taking a lousy test over again? If you can find a real job in the meantime, it'll even make you more employable.

And yes, I know you'll have to ask your parents permission to put off law school a year. Just sack up and do it. Your parents are clueless anyway, ignore them from now on. Listen to us.

Does being an asshole on the internet seriously make you feel better about yourself?

I'm currently employed in a "real job." It ends in August. My parents have nothing to do with this...I'll have to ask my "parents permission to put off law school a year"? What does that even mean. I put myself through undergrad and I'm currently working and paying my own way. Moving back in with my parents is not an option in my case. If you have the ability to move back in with your parents or to get some kind of monetary support from your family, that's great for you, not everyone has the same luxury as you do. If you want to say "retake is your only option here," fine, do that. But you don't have to get on here and insult my family and me for no reason.

Mild comments do not do justice to the magnitude of the fuck up it is to not retake a first try 169. Mild responses normalize the situation and make it seem like any choice is okay. Mild comments perpetuate the idiotic TLS conventional wisdom that you can be "happy" with a first take score that isn't above every school's median. And I will not participate in that white washing.

Maybe you have extenuating circumstances. And maybe you top out at 169. I'm not talking about those situations. I'm talking about having a damn good reason to forgo money that will be life changing post-LS. Duke with money is fine, but full ride at Duke is something else.

Unless you're literally facing homelessness in lieu of going to law school, retaking isn't just the only option, but all other options are idiotic. You're literally turning down six figures of free money and forefoing dramatic quality of life improvements post law school.

rayiner wrote:Because you can almost always go up 2-3 points with another retry or two, and in the 167-170 range that means $100k in scholarship money. When else are you going to get $100k just for taking a lousy test over again?

Yep.

And OP, I'm pretty sure that advice is coming from a federal clerk, not some random 0L.