Mich ($105K) vs Northwestern ($150K) Forum

[sobrickay]

I'm a long time lurker and this is my first post, I'd like to hear what you think. I've edited this significantly from what I had previously after Michigan upped their scholarship offer. I like aspects of both schools, but obviously they are both very different places. I would love to live in Chicago, but I think I am more like the typical Michigan student than NW student - if that should even enter into my decision. Of course, the I have to weigh the costs - are those intangibles worth $35K?

Numbers: [edited out - three LSAT scores]

Scholarship/COA at graduation (negotiated):
Michigan: $105K/~$128K
NU: $150k/ ~$93K

Undergraduate debt: ~$30K

Financing: completely loans

Career Goals:
Short term, my goal is a federal clerkship. I've always wanted to go into BigFed or some sort of government work, but I'm also realistic about my chances of getting into that career given I won't be going to HYS. I can definitely see myself doing litigation and spending time in private practice before deciding to move into government. So I have some ideas, but I am not yet gunning for anything. If I'm working in private practice, I'd like to return to the Midwest; I have some connections (strong enough to get me interviews) in both Minneapolis and Chicago.

Pros for Michigan: Its been my dream school for some time; I think I would absolutely love it there. I think the school culture/academic offerings/reputation probably align more closely with my long term goals. It also has a better LRAP.

Pros for NW: It is located in Chicago, which I think I would like better than Ann Arbor (I love living in the city). May provide better opportunities for networking and experience (i.e. clinicals and internships) in areas I am interested in (though that boost might be marginal?). It is also cheaper and had better job placement last year. It is also a smaller school, which I think is a positive.

Having the cost differential narrowed from $80K to $35K, to me, makes Michigan a (more) solid decision, but as always I'd like to get other people's ideas.

FWIW: I also have scholarships from Cornell ($120K) and Duke ($72K), but for reasons of distance from the midwest/career goals I've ruled them out.

[Edits: Made things more concise and narrowed my decision down to NW and Michigan)

[whereskyle]

I'm a long time lurker and this is my first post, but I'd like some advice for how to navigate my situation given my career goals. I was wondering if anyone had any suggestion on how to start that conversation with Michigan - should I go to Duke first and try to bump their offer up and then go to Michigan with Duke's offer? Do I just go straight to Michigan with NUs offer? I know they say they don't negotiate, but I feel hopeful that they would try to compete with a near full-ride from Northwestern. Any advice on that would be greatly appreciated.

Numbers: ~3.8/169

Scholarship/COA (before interest and assuming no tuition increases)*:
Michigan: $67.5k/ $163k
NU: $150k/ $83k
Duke: $72k/ $172k

Financing: completely loans

*I know I need to factor these in, but they depend on the length of my repayment, so for sake of easier comparison I've left it as the cost upon graduation. I've also used the schools COL estimates, but as a relatively frugal person I will probably spend less.

Career Goals:
Short term, my goal is a federal clerkship. I've always wanted to go into BigFed or some sort of government work, but I'm also realistic about my chances of getting into that career given I won't be going to HYS. After spending some more time talking to lawyers and watching some hearings, I can also see myself in Biglaw doing litigation. I think the Biglaw to PI/gov route is probably the most likely for me, which I am fine with. So I have some ideas, but I am not yet gunning for anything. If I'm working in private practice, I'd like to return to the Midwest; I have some biglaw connections through family in Minneapolis and can also see myself happily working in Chicago.

I think the crux of my problem is that Northwestern's reputation is so centered on BigLaw. This might hurt me down the line if my goal is government. Many of the lawyers I've spoken to seem to regard Michigan pretty highly, and given my career goals I wonder if that longer-term reputation is something that would serve me better than Northwestern. On the other hand, the money at Northwestern is hard to walk away from, and there is definitely something to be said for the freedom and opportunity of having a T14 degree at such a low cost (I mean this relatively, obviously, because I think its hard to graduate with debt less than 70-90K including interest if you have to pay for COL). I really like Michigan, and since day one it has been my dream school. Before I got my scholarship from NU I had my heart set. But I know I can't let that amount of money sit on the table for such subjective reasons.

So firstly, how do you folks advise breaking the ice with Michigan (in terms of timeline, and order of negotiations)? Secondly, at what price would Michigan be worth going to?

Finally, if you think I'm absolutely crazy (I'm sure some people might) for even considering Michigan against NU's offer, I'd like to hear your reasoning. Thanks a million, TLS; you have been very helpful to me thus far.

0L here. Idk if anyone more knowledgeable can comment, but I assume the shot at big fed is equal coming from each of these schools.

[Mullens]

First, you should add a poll to the original post.

Second, I think you are absolutely crazy to not go to NU at the current COAs. The 80k difference is far too much to swallow based solely on the opinion of a handful of lawyers when NU and Michigan are very much peers and NU has better employment statistics.

[Tiago Splitter]

Yes you would be crazy to take either Duke or Michigan over NU at those prices. They are all peers.

[09042014]

Northwestern is the best school of your three and is half the cost. There is no decision to be made here. Northwestern has a reputation for biglaw because it gets people jobs.

[3L2014]

All peer schools, NW is 80k cheaper. This is a no-brainer.

[yost]

Northwestern, no question. That being said, there is no harm in taking your NU offer to Michigan and Duke and seeing what you can squeeze of out of them.

[lecsa]

Northwestern is the best school of your three and is half the cost. There is no decision to be made here. Northwestern has a reputation for biglaw because it gets people jobs.

It does? I thought a lot of it had to do with the fact that NU grads are older and with work experience. Biglaw firms like older people with WE. Duke and Mich tend to have a younger population and more straight out of undergrads. You're also competing against your classmates for callbacks - straight out of undergrads have a disadvantage when competing with older folks with work experience, and there are more of those at NU.

I think these schools have similar job prospects, so I'd go with the cheapest. I'd ask Duke and Mich to see if they'll give you more money and go from there.

[Mullens]

The average age of the entering classes last year at Michigan and Duke was 24. It was 25 at Northwestern.

[lecsa]

The average age of the entering classes last year at Michigan and Duke was 24. It was 25 at Northwestern.

I think it was 26 (or maybe 27?) when I was looking at schools.

[rayiner]

Re: clerkships, I don't think there is any difference between the schools, at least not these days. This year, the spread between these schools for clerkship placement was 1%. If you factor in the big JD-MBA class (10% at NU versus 1% at Michigan and Duke), which is a group that almost never clerks, the gap is even less.

In any case any perceived differences in prestige is no reason to turn down what is a shit ton of money. Its not 1995 anymore, and the fact is that you have the most money at the school with the best placement out of your three choices. This is a no brainer.

[Doorkeeper]

Retake if you're serious about wanting a federal clerkship then bigfed.

[rayiner]

Retake if you're serious about wanting a federal clerkship then bigfed.

Yes. With a 3.8 another few points could get you the big H.

[sobrickay]

Northwestern, no question. That being said, there is no harm in taking your NU offer to Michigan and Duke and seeing what you can squeeze of out of them.

That's my plan. I expected NU to be the favorite, and I understand why. At the current cost disparity, NU is the way to go. I guess I was hoping people had some thoughts on what price people would take Michigan over NU, considering that (from what I gather) Michigan's enjoys a longer reputation boost that might serve me better if I try to move into government later in my career. I think this, combined with Michigan's LRAP (which is based only on income, not job-type), probably make Michigan worth more money. Just how much more is the question.

To the people who said retake:
That would mean waiting another year and taking a fourth test. I think there is a point of diminishing returns in retaking and waiting. Obviously Harvard would certainly make those goals more easily attainable - but launching from elsewhere in the T14 with less debt (read: a LOT) is not a bad option either.

Thanks again, I'm glad to have a little help thinking this through. I'll make sure to update/add a poll as soon as I hear back from Michigan/Duke.

[rickgrimes69]

That's my plan. I expected NU to be the favorite, and I understand why. At the current cost disparity, NU is the way to go. I guess I was hoping people had some thoughts on what price people would take Michigan over NU, considering that (from what I gather) Michigan's enjoys a longer reputation boost that might serve me better if I try to move into government later in my career. I think this, combined with Michigan's LRAP (which is based only on income, not job-type), probably make Michigan worth more money. Just how much more is the question..

Michigan is not going to give you any measurable boost in prestige. Not only is it not worth more than Duke/NU, I would argue it's worth less based on its dismal job placement over the past few years.

At current prices, NU is TCR without question. Frankly, without a Darrow, I wouldn't be considering Michigan in your situation.

[jbagelboy]

Northwestern, no question. That being said, there is no harm in taking your NU offer to Michigan and Duke and seeing what you can squeeze of out of them.

That's my plan. I expected NU to be the favorite, and I understand why. At the current cost disparity, NU is the way to go. I guess I was hoping people had some thoughts on what price people would take Michigan over NU, considering that (from what I gather) Michigan's enjoys a longer reputation boost that might serve me better if I try to move into government later in my career. I think this, combined with Michigan's LRAP (which is based only on income, not job-type), probably make Michigan worth more money. Just how much more is the question.

To the people who said retake:
That would mean waiting another year and taking a fourth test. I think there is a point of diminishing returns in retaking and waiting. Obviously Harvard would certainly make those goals more easily attainable - but launching from elsewhere in the T14 with less debt (read: a LOT) is not a bad option either.

Thanks again, I'm glad to have a little help thinking this through. I'll make sure to update/add a poll as soon as I hear back from Michigan/Duke.

I agree. With debt reduction as a key goal, H won't help you. That Northwestern award is incredible - TAKE IT and never look back.

(Also I think that school must be running out of money soon.. How can they afford to offer that kind of scholarship to 3.8/169? Last year people with those numbers were being WL'd or handed $60K).

[birdlaw624]

I know that Mark Walters (NU law grad, partial owner of the Dodgers) donated $40 mill for athletics and law scholarships recently. I think this only happened very recently so I'm not sure it would affect how they're doling out $$$ right now.

[sobrickay]

Also I think that school must be running out of money soon.. How can they afford to offer that kind of scholarship to 3.8/169? Last year people with those numbers were being WL'd or handed $60K.

I was pretty surprised, but I'm not complaining! The only explanation I have is that they aren't giving scholarships based just on numbers - my softs must have clicked with someone on the admissions committee. That or... maybe the dive in application numbers is hitting them harder than expected?

[Tiago Splitter]

Also I think that school must be running out of money soon.. How can they afford to offer that kind of scholarship to 3.8/169? Last year people with those numbers were being WL'd or handed $60K.

I was pretty surprised, but I'm not complaining! The only explanation I have is that they aren't giving scholarships based just on numbers - my softs must have clicked with someone on the admissions committee. That or... maybe the dive in application numbers is hitting them harder than expected?

You're at or above both medians. Last year at this time NU probably thought they could still hold on to the 170.

[Arboreal]

That's my plan. I expected NU to be the favorite, and I understand why. At the current cost disparity, NU is the way to go. I guess I was hoping people had some thoughts on what price people would take Michigan over NU, considering that (from what I gather) Michigan's enjoys a longer reputation boost that might serve me better if I try to move into government later in my career. I think this, combined with Michigan's LRAP (which is based only on income, not job-type), probably make Michigan worth more money. Just how much more is the question..

Michigan is not going to give you any measurable boost in prestige. Not only is it not worth more than Duke/NU, I would argue it's worth less based on its dismal job placement over the past few years.

At current prices, NU is TCR without question. Frankly, without a Darrow, I wouldn't be considering Michigan in your situation.

This gets to an interesting issue -- the perception of prestige over time.

I've talked to a number of partner/associate/in house counsel folk over the course of my law school preparations, and apart from the HYS trinity, there seems to be some serious inconsistency with respect to school reputations among different age brackets.

Example: I've met ~five older partners who all hold Michigan in much higher esteem than NYU, current rankings be damned. Newer associates tend have the opposite view.

This leads me to believe that just by dint of generational differences there isn't any clearly agreed upon prestige hierarchy within schools #4-14 (at least not among most biglaw firm hiring committees (assuming my sample is representative)). So I suppose this means one ought to emphasize the raw job numbers and COA far more than is even commonly agreed upon in choosing a law school to attend.

This obviously doesn't hold for academia/clerkships.

But, yeah, choose NU.

[sobrickay]

This gets to an interesting issue -- the perception of prestige over time.

I've talked to a number of partner/associate/in house counsel folk over the course of my law school preparations, and apart from the HYS trinity, there seems to be some serious inconsistency with respect to school reputations among different age brackets.

Example: I've met ~five older partners who all hold Michigan in much higher esteem than NYU, current rankings be damned. Newer associates tend have the opposite view.

This leads me to believe that just by dint of generational differences there isn't any clearly agreed upon prestige hierarchy within schools #4-14 (at least not among most biglaw firm hiring committees (assuming my sample is representative)). So I suppose this means one ought to emphasize the raw job numbers and COA far more than is even commonly agreed upon in choosing a law school to attend.

This obviously doesn't hold for academia/clerkships.

But, yeah, choose NU.

I have had a similar experience talking to attorneys in the middle of their careers. Almost all of them group NW with Cornell and Michigan somewhere near the T6. Nobody spoke ill of any of the schools, and the differences seemed to be marginal at best. Even so, I got the feeling that Michigan had more staying power. That's not to say that I agree with that, but when its a close decision maybe its okay to factor that prestige consideration in?

Also, bumping this thread now that I added new info

[paglababa]

Re: clerkships, I don't think there is any difference between the schools, at least not these days. This year, the spread between these schools for clerkship placement was 1%. If you factor in the big JD-MBA class (10% at NU versus 1% at Michigan and Duke), which is a group that almost never clerks, the gap is even less.

In any case any perceived differences in prestige is no reason to turn down what is a shit ton of money. Its not 1995 anymore, and the fact is that you have the most money at the school with the best placement out of your three choices. This is a no brainer.

I implore you to take NU and not look back.

[jbagelboy]

Re: clerkships, I don't think there is any difference between the schools, at least not these days. This year, the spread between these schools for clerkship placement was 1%. If you factor in the big JD-MBA class (10% at NU versus 1% at Michigan and Duke), which is a group that almost never clerks, the gap is even less.

In any case any perceived differences in prestige is no reason to turn down what is a shit ton of money. Its not 1995 anymore, and the fact is that you have the most money at the school with the best placement out of your three choices. This is a no brainer.

I implore you to take NU and not look back.

+1

Northwestern is baller.

[Micdiddy]

For reference I took NU 120k over Mich 90k, and you have an even greater discrepancy. Also, probably would have taken NU even if Mich had matched 120k. Obviously it somewhat comes down to personal preference, but in this case the scholly discrepancy is too big and the job placement at NU over Mich is too good. Go to NU.

[BigZuck]

NU is the hands down no brainer here

But we aren't going to start pretending that Northwestern is a better school than Duke are we? These schools are peers (which is the reason you've just got to follow the money when the disparity is so great).

Maybe I was just misunderstanding the NU bros when they said its the "best" or had "the best placement" because they meant "best in the Midwest?"