Top Law Schools

Hi all! I am having a really hard time deciding which school out of these 4 to go to. As soon as I think I've decided, I second guess myself.

-The schools you are considering and COA (MY BEST ESTIMATE): :

• GULC - COA: ~170K (90K scholly)
  UCLA - COA: ~120K (90K scholly, plus 7500 in need based aid, plus probable in state tuition for years 2 and 3)
  ASU - COA: ~60K (full scholly, cost of living only)
  UT Austin - COA: ~130K (if they match my 30K scholly, probably less if I could get instate tuition for years 2 and 3)

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
I will be financing only with loans - no family help, and no savings of my own. Sad, I know

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
I am from Minnesota, lived in Los Angeles for about 7 years, and am currently in Phoenix. I would really like to work in Phoenix after law school, but would be ok with working in CA, TX, WA or OR if I can't work in Phoenix, though Phoenix is definitely preferred.

-Your general career goals
Not sure what area I want to work in, but I really want to get some experience in animal law during school. I probably won't end up doing it as a career, but it is something that I am passionate about, and that I want to be involved in throughout my career. As far as actual work, I would like to be in a medium to large sized firm, doing who knows what. I also would not like to rule out teaching in the future.

-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
173/3.45

-How many times you have taken the LSAT
Once

I honestly think that my choice really comes down to ASU vs. UCLA - I included GULC because it's my "dream school", and Texas because it could possibly end up being cheaper than UCLA and I'd still be in this area of the country (though it is not driving distance, as UCLA is). My boyfriend will be staying here in AZ. Any advice?

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GULC seems like the way to go here. Good luck!

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Should've applied to more T-14s. Would you rather be in Phoenix or would you rather work in a large firm?

BoyOhBoyle wrote:
-Your general career goals
Not sure what area I want to work in, but I really want to get some experience in animal law during school. I probably won't end up doing it as a career, but it is something that I am passionate about, and that I want to be involved in throughout my career. As far as actual work, I would like to be in a medium to large sized firm, doing who knows what. I also would not like to rule out teaching in the future.

I am, by far, no animal law expert, but I'm not sure that that type of practice jives with any large firm practice. There's the philosophical sort of academic stuff and then actual intersections with things like family (small law), discrimination (typically small), dog bite (small) and criminal (small/gov't).

If it's teaching, GULC is the best option although not great. Otherwise, to ever reach that practice area, you're either becoming an expert (super difficult) or you're hoping for that intersection in another practice area. Maybe at a large firm you can pick up some pro bono work in that area and at least get some courtroom time.

I also have some concerns, but I'm clueless about GULC doing well on the west coast and specifically Phoenix. Winston is credited with his Q. Also, 3 years away from your SO is a blessing and a curse. It's not easy...

Winston1984 wrote:Should've applied to more T-14s. Would you rather be in Phoenix or would you rather work in a large firm?

I actually applied to almost all of them. Waitlisted at all but UVA, Cornell and GULC - well, I'm STILL waiting to hear from NYU, but I'm assuming I will not be accepted . I can't afford UVA, and Cornell is just too remote for me. There are some big firms in Phoenix (not a ton) but I'd be perfectly happy working in any one of the bigger firms here (which probably qualifies as "medium sized" in the rest of the country).

Also, I think I may have underestimated the cost of GULC - I used an old tuition chart and forgot about rises in tuition. Ugh, COA is so impossible to predict. I'd probably be looking at closer to 170K I think. That's kind of scary for me. The deposit is due on the 4th, so it's really getting down to the wire.

(edited for spelling)

I don't think animal law is really a thing, and definitely not at a large firm. Midlaw doesn't really exist for our purposes either, nor does academia.

Honestly, I think all these are too expensive (except for maybe ASU). I guess gun to my head I pick GULC.

There isn't a whole lot of difference of fed clerk/biglaw percentage at GULC and UCLA. GULC is at 46.5% for the 2013 class and UCLA at 39.5%. If the OP wants to stay on the west coast, UCLA is better for that desire. I believe GULC places more biglaw people in 250+ than UCLA, but still, the west coast consideration is big here. If it were me, I'd choose ASU, but obviously OP has to think they'll be doing small law in Phoenix.

I'm interested philosophically in animal law, OP, but I know it's difficult as hell to do it as a career. That said, if I could do pro bono work on the side, that'd be fulfilling.

BoyOhBoyle wrote:

Winston1984 wrote:Should've applied to more T-14s. Would you rather be in Phoenix or would you rather work in a large firm?

I actually applied to almost all of them. Waitlisted at all but UVA, Cornell and GULC - well, I'm STILL waiting to hear from NYU, but I'm assuming I will not be accepted . I can't afford UVA, and Cornell is just too remote for me. There are some big firms in Phoenix (not a ton) but I'd be perfectly happy working in any one of the bigger firms here (which probably qualifies as "medium sized" in the rest of the country).

Also, I think I may have underestimated the cost of GULC - I used an old tuition chart and forgot about rises in tuition. Ugh, COA is so impossible to predict. I'd probably be looking at closer to 170K I think. That's kind of scary for me. The deposit is due on the 4th, so it's really getting down to the wire.

(edited for spelling)

I meant, would you rather have Phoenix small law or some other market like NYC biglaw?

BoyOhBoyle wrote: I actually applied to almost all of them. Waitlisted at all but UVA, Cornell and GULC

Heh? Jesus. As a GPA peer, this makes me feel less bad about not demolishing the LSAT.. Weird cycle.

90k at GULC is pretty sweet especially if it's your dream school I'd say that should be your choice without a doubt!

I get being turned off by Ithaca, but did they offer you money? Is there no possibility of getting money from UVA?

Winston1984 wrote:

BoyOhBoyle wrote:

Winston1984 wrote:Should've applied to more T-14s. Would you rather be in Phoenix or would you rather work in a large firm?

I actually applied to almost all of them. Waitlisted at all but UVA, Cornell and GULC - well, I'm STILL waiting to hear from NYU, but I'm assuming I will not be accepted . I can't afford UVA, and Cornell is just too remote for me. There are some big firms in Phoenix (not a ton) but I'd be perfectly happy working in any one of the bigger firms here (which probably qualifies as "medium sized" in the rest of the country).

Also, I think I may have underestimated the cost of GULC - I used an old tuition chart and forgot about rises in tuition. Ugh, COA is so impossible to predict. I'd probably be looking at closer to 170K I think. That's kind of scary for me. The deposit is due on the 4th, so it's really getting down to the wire.

(edited for spelling)

I meant, would you rather have Phoenix small law or some other market like NYC biglaw?

I'd go with Phoenix small law. The firms here that I would like to work at (at least at this point, since I really don't know any of the smaller ones) are firms like Snell & Wilmer, Perkins Coie, Greenberg Traurig, Quarles & Brady, etc. I don't know if those qualify as "small law" or not, but location is more important than the size of the firm, honestly. But the market here is so small, I'm paranoid that if I go to ASU and don't finish near the top of my class, I will not get hired at these kinds of firms. I feel like if I went to one of the others, I would have an easier time getting into those firms and have other options if I can't get into a firm here in Phoenix, if that makes any sense at all. I really don't want to stray far from Phoenix, though, after law school.

Honestly, I'd take ASU in your case. Top half should give you a job in Phoenix at a firm (although I would totally forget about biglaw happening), and it seems to me that location is what is really important. Also, maybe talk to some lawyers in those firms and see how far they dip into ASU and GULC.

Winston1984 wrote:Honestly, I'd take ASU in your case. Top half should give you a job in Phoenix at a firm (although I would totally forget about biglaw happening), and it seems to me that location is what is really important. Also, maybe talk to some lawyers in those firms and see how far they dip into ASU and GULC.

I don't think that's really how small firm hiring works. Once you miss the OCI gravy train, I don't know if its a whole lot better to be in the top 25% than the bottom 10% for the majority of firms. At that point I think it's more about fit/competence (not as measured by your performance in say, con law, but as measured by your interning experience or whatever)/the quality of your overall hustle game.

BigZuck wrote:

Winston1984 wrote:Honestly, I'd take ASU in your case. Top half should give you a job in Phoenix at a firm (although I would totally forget about biglaw happening), and it seems to me that location is what is really important. Also, maybe talk to some lawyers in those firms and see how far they dip into ASU and GULC.

I don't think that's really how small firm hiring works. Once you miss the OCI gravy train, I don't know if its a whole lot better to be in the top 25% than the bottom 10% for the majority of firms. At that point I think it's more about fit/competence (not as measured by your performance in say, con law, but as measured by your interning experience or whatever)/the quality of your overall hustle game.

Good point, and you know more about this than I do. I was really trying to get at the point that OP has a good chance of getting LTFT legal work in Phoenix from ASU. Enough to justify taking the scholarship.

Otunga wrote:
I'm interested philosophically in animal law, OP, but I know it's difficult as hell to do it as a career. That said, if I could do pro bono work on the side, that'd be fulfilling.

That's actually my goal. I didn't mean I wanted to practice animal law in a firm (I know that is not possible), and if I had no other worries in the world, I would try to work for PETA, ALDF, Mercy for Animals, etc. and do animal law full time. Unfortunately, I really don't think that's a possibility for me. But it is something that I want to try to do on the side, if at all possible, in some capacity.

BoyOhBoyle wrote:But the market here is so small, I'm paranoid that if I go to ASU and don't finish near the top of my class, I will not get hired at these kinds of firms. I feel like if I went to one of the others, I would have an easier time getting into those firms and have other options if I can't get into a firm here in Phoenix, if that makes any sense at all. I really don't want to stray far from Phoenix, though, after law school.

As a native Minnesotan who moved to Southern California and then Phoenix before heading to law school I have to say you seem to know what's up. It could be tough to get back to Phoenix if you leave, but if you stay there's a decent chance you won't get a firm job from ASU. It sounds like ending up in Phoenix is important enough to you that you should just risk it at ASU. At least there the debt will be low enough to let you take whatever comes along. But don't expect to get any of the firms you listed just because you have to finish so high in the class to land them.

Winston1984 wrote:

BigZuck wrote:

Winston1984 wrote:Honestly, I'd take ASU in your case. Top half should give you a job in Phoenix at a firm (although I would totally forget about biglaw happening), and it seems to me that location is what is really important. Also, maybe talk to some lawyers in those firms and see how far they dip into ASU and GULC.

I don't think that's really how small firm hiring works. Once you miss the OCI gravy train, I don't know if its a whole lot better to be in the top 25% than the bottom 10% for the majority of firms. At that point I think it's more about fit/competence (not as measured by your performance in say, con law, but as measured by your interning experience or whatever)/the quality of your overall hustle game.

Good point, and you know more about this than I do. I was really trying to get at the point that OP has a good chance of getting LTFT legal work in Phoenix from ASU. Enough to justify taking the scholarship.

For sure

I think the OP needs to decide where exactly the priorities lie. Location? Large firm work? Shielding herself from debt? Etc.

I (reluctabtly) said Georgetown because I read "big law" (but that COA has since risen so I might revise that). If AZ is the priority and the OP is cool with a 50K job coming out, then I'd just roll the dice there most likely. UCLA isn't particularly appealing to me because of cost and UT isn't appealing because of cost and lack of TX ties.

Poll could be helpful too OP. And I think what you really need to decide is if you are cool with Phoenix small law (which you seem to be).

Was anything weird about your app or anything?
It seems likely that you will have some of these WL options come into play- especially with that LSAT.

Also, not that it matters much but you won't get instate tuition at UT for the second and third year. I have heard that CA is easier though so maybe you will at UCLA

There is a big market for animal law in AZ. It is mostly tax and transnational dealing with horses and ranches and the tax consequences of having these animals. There are also zoning and real estate issues.
While I don't think this is the type of law you are referring to when you say "Animal Law," I think doing this type of law for your career would make it easier to eventually do more of the pro bono work you were talking about.

As for what school to attend.. UCLA is my vote

Winston1984 wrote:Poll could be helpful too OP. And I think what you really need to decide is if you are cool with Phoenix small law (which you seem to be).

haha I would add a poll, but I honestly haven't the slightest clue how to do that I'm somewhat of an amateur TLSer.

EDIT: Figured it out, amazing what a FAQ can do

I guess the confusion here lies with "biglaw". In my mind, the firms that I named are big law firms. So maybe "Biglaw" is not really what I am looking for, because I don't know of any bigger firms than those in Phoenix. So if when you say Phoenix small law, you mean firms like the ones I named, then I am definitely cool with it. (sorry if I sound stupid here, maybe I am just not getting what constitutes "biglaw"?). Does BigLaw only constitute markets like NYC, Chicago, D.C., etc?