T14 at sticker? Forum

[cotiger]

Don't be dumb. Don't go to a non-HYS unless you get a full ride or parents are paying.

Geez tls, wtf is going on today.

Overly-broad and dramatic groupthink statements are overly-broad and dramatic.

TLS has seriously swung 180 in the last several years. It used to be go the best school because t14 is a golden ticket, now it is t14 at sticker is suicide. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Joad is going a bit overboard with that sentiment, but when sticker means $300k in debt that'll take 6 years of $60k/yr to pay off, I don't think sticker makes sense, no matter what school we're talking about.*

*Possibly YHS if someone has verrry specific, achievable (ie has good experience in the area of interest) goals where only those schools will do.

[BentleyLittle]

I'd be happy to go t14 at sticker. But none of them will accept my money

EDIT: That being said, I would only do so if I have exhausted retake attempts, negotiated, married the dean's daughter, and done everything in my power to better my position.

Same. I might even consider UT Austin at in state sticker with Texas ties and SEO.

[Law Sauce]

I'm assuming this is flame based on the OP's account of Penn's facilities. If so, 180.

No I definitely had this reaction visiting Penn as a 0L. I can see where it is coming from. However, this really does not matter much if at all.

Back to the actual point of the thread, OP see my advice in my second post.

[rayiner]

I would recommend retaking, not to get into HYS, but to get more money at NU.

For 75% of the class, the options coming out of NU and HLS are very similar. I'd say 80% of people out of NU can get big law if they want it, and maybe that's 95% at HLS. Then there are maybe 10% at HLS that can get a really elite job that only a negligible percentage can get at NU (WLRK, Susman, feeder clerkship). For the remaining 75% of people, you're looking at ending up at a big law firm, either with or without an intervening clerkship.

For the people who don't manage to get big law, PAY-E limits the pain by limiting loan payments to at most 10% of discretionary income. That mitigates most of the "big law or kill self" pressure. The real problem is what happens when you do get big law. Working at a big firm is a huge grind, and most people don't last very long. Unless you get WLRK, Susman, etc, it will take a long time to pay off your loans even making a market salary.

If you can get your LSAT above 170, with a 3.85 you'd be looking at maybe half to full tuition at NU. There was a time, when I was in your shoes, where I would've gone to HLS over NU with $100k in a heartbeat. Now, I think: "shit, $100k is basically an extra 3-4 years of working big law to pay down your loans." Unless your goals are feeder/SCOTUS level, the bump from HLS just isn't worth that much money.

And don't take this as a "bitter grad" trope, either. I worked at a great firm, now I have a great clerkship. I really love being a lawyer, and I'd totally do it again in a heartbeat, even at sticker. But I'd also love that $100k. Being able to afford not living like a college student a few years earlier. Even though I love my job, it's hard to work 60 hours a week and make $160k/year but have to sock away half of it for loans. It's a huge quality of life issue.

[03152016]

Don't be dumb. Don't go to a non-HYS unless you get a full ride or parents are paying.

Geez tls, wtf is going on today.

Overly-broad and dramatic groupthink statements are overly-broad and dramatic.

I'm still figuring out my whole law school decision, but I feel like the sentiment has shifted from "T14 is worth it" to "HYS or GTFO" in a matter of months since I've joined this website. Obviously not everyone is preaching it (and it does depend on circumstances) but I've definitely seen this sentiment expressed in greater frequency.

Yea, there are crazy cycles on here. But its been crazy volatile in the last year like you said. Its because a bunch on 0Ls are always joining, reading for a like a month, and thinking they understand everything and need to enlighten other people. And then you end up with this crazy groupthink intensification of people just repeating stuff other people have said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

I've noticed the change too, and it's annoying as hell.

[Grazzhoppa]

Retake and go to Harvard.

[rpupkin]

Yea, there are crazy cycles on here. But its been crazy volatile in the last year like you said. Its because a bunch on 0Ls are always joining, reading for a like a month, and thinking they understand everything and need to enlighten other people. And then you end up with this crazy groupthink intensification of people just repeating stuff other people have said.

+1

[cotiger]

Yea, there are crazy cycles on here. But its been crazy volatile in the last year like you said. Its because a bunch on 0Ls are always joining, reading for a like a month, and thinking they understand everything and need to enlighten other people. And then you end up with this crazy groupthink intensification of people just repeating stuff other people have said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

I've noticed the change too, and it's annoying as hell.

Twas only six months ago when it was dominated by the likes of Mono with his "every T14 sticker (and even T20) is easily justified" schtick.

I find it fun. Spice of life, and all.

[Nelson]

Yea, there are crazy cycles on here. But its been crazy volatile in the last year like you said. Its because a bunch on 0Ls are always joining, reading for a like a month, and thinking they understand everything and need to enlighten other people. And then you end up with this crazy groupthink intensification of people just repeating stuff other people have said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

I've noticed the change too, and it's annoying as hell.

Twas only six months ago when it was dominated by the likes of Mono with his "every T14 sticker (and even T20) is easily justified" schtick.

I find it fun. Spice of life, and all.

Other than you guys getting trolled by Joad, I'm not sure what you're talking about. TLS is always a debate between 0Ls who think sticker is fine because biglaw and actual law students and grads who think it's a usually a bad idea no matter what school you're at (unless you're a low GPA splitter).

[fenton]

Geez tls, wtf is going on today.

Overly-broad and dramatic groupthink statements are overly-broad and dramatic.

TLS has seriously swung 180 in the last several years. It used to be go the best school because t14 is a golden ticket, now it is t14 at sticker is suicide. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Do you think that might have something to do with the fact that COA keeps going up, employment stats keep getting worse, and biglaw pays the same?

I started law school in 2006. During my 2L year first year biglaw salaries jumped to $160k, my school's tuition was $34,000, and I rented a decent apartment for $1800/month. Now, biglaw still pays $160k, you have a much worse chance of landing it, tuition is $46,000, and that same apartment goes for $2700. There was bound to be a tipping point where it was no longer a good idea to go anywhere at sticker (except maybe HYS).

[francesfarmer]

Geez tls, wtf is going on today.

Overly-broad and dramatic groupthink statements are overly-broad and dramatic.

TLS has seriously swung 180 in the last several years. It used to be go the best school because t14 is a golden ticket, now it is t14 at sticker is suicide. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Do you think that might have something to do with the fact that COA keeps going up, employment stats keep getting worse, and biglaw pays the same?

I started law school in 2006. During my 2L year first year biglaw salaries jumped to $160k, my school's tuition was $34,000, and I rented a decent apartment for $1800/month. Now, biglaw still pays $160k, you have a much worse chance of landing it, tuition is $46,000, and that same apartment goes for $2700. There was bound to be a tipping point where it was no longer a good idea to go anywhere at sticker (except maybe HYS).

That's pretty low tuition, even.

[jbagelboy]

I would recommend retaking, not to get into HYS, but to get more money at NU.

For 75% of the class, the options coming out of NU and HLS are very similar. I'd say 80% of people out of NU can get big law if they want it, and maybe that's 95% at HLS. Then there are maybe 10% at HLS that can get a really elite job that only a negligible percentage can get at NU (WLRK, Susman, feeder clerkship). For the remaining 75% of people, you're looking at ending up at a big law firm, either with or without an intervening clerkship.

For the people who don't manage to get big law, PAY-E limits the pain by limiting loan payments to at most 10% of discretionary income. That mitigates most of the "big law or kill self" pressure. The real problem is what happens when you do get big law. Working at a big firm is a huge grind, and most people don't last very long. Unless you get WLRK, Susman, etc, it will take a long time to pay off your loans even making a market salary.

If you can get your LSAT above 170, with a 3.85 you'd be looking at maybe half to full tuition at NU. There was a time, when I was in your shoes, where I would've gone to HLS over NU with $100k in a heartbeat. Now, I think: "shit, $100k is basically an extra 3-4 years of working big law to pay down your loans." Unless your goals are feeder/SCOTUS level, the bump from HLS just isn't worth that much money.

And don't take this as a "bitter grad" trope, either. I worked at a great firm, now I have a great clerkship. I really love being a lawyer, and I'd totally do it again in a heartbeat, even at sticker. But I'd also love that $100k. Being able to afford not living like a college student a few years earlier. Even though I love my job, it's hard to work 60 hours a week and make $160k/year but have to sock away half of it for loans. It's a huge quality of life issue.

Unless we treat every state clerkship, small firm gig, school funded position or unemployment as "self-selected," note my incredulity, substantially less than 95% of Harvard, or 80% of NU, can depend on landing market paying biglaw. Seems a bit rosy on both ends IMO. But carry on.

[da91392]

I would recommend retaking, not to get into HYS, but to get more money at NU. For 75% of the class, the options coming out of NU and HLS are very similar. I'd say 80% of people out of NU can get big law if they want it, and maybe that's 95% at HLS. It's hard to work 60 hours a week and make $160k/year but have to sock away half of it for loans. It's a huge quality of life issue.

This advice is well-taken. I've talked it over with my father quite a bit and while sticker is a lot of money no matter how much you make, he is confident he can cover the costs with no burden on me (I went to undergrad on scholarship, so there is also my college fund to use). He will also cover rent and expenses while I'm in school. That being said, if I can save him money I should try my damnedest, but thankfully quality of life and debt are two things that won't be an issue for me.

[Law Sauce]

I would recommend retaking, not to get into HYS, but to get more money at NU. For 75% of the class, the options coming out of NU and HLS are very similar. I'd say 80% of people out of NU can get big law if they want it, and maybe that's 95% at HLS. It's hard to work 60 hours a week and make $160k/year but have to sock away half of it for loans. It's a huge quality of life issue.

This advice is well-taken. I've talked it over with my father quite a bit and while sticker is a lot of money no matter how much you make, he is confident he can cover the costs with no burden on me (I went to undergrad on scholarship, so there is also my college fund to use). He will also cover rent and expenses while I'm in school. That being said, if I can save him money I should try my damnedest, but thankfully quality of life and debt are two things that won't be an issue for me.

Well that changes everything doesn't it. Definitely NW.

[whereskyle]

Any non-Hys at sticker is probably not advisable. Maybe a 35% chance where pslf (maybe), the military, or death are the only ways to become financially solvent. If you're in the 65%, you'll need to stay in biglaw for a really long time, but more people might prefer death to that.

LOL this is a blunt version of the cold-hard truth - only HYS is worth sticker and if tuition keeps going the way it is in 10 years if it's 70k tutition 25k living expenses that may even be in question. But for now, this is the large consensus on TLS don't go unless you can get pretty much at least 25% tuition otherwise take the full-ride outside the t-14 or half tutition at UT/UCLA/Vandy etc.

HYS being worth sticker is in question right now.

[whereskyle]

I would recommend retaking, not to get into HYS, but to get more money at NU. For 75% of the class, the options coming out of NU and HLS are very similar. I'd say 80% of people out of NU can get big law if they want it, and maybe that's 95% at HLS. It's hard to work 60 hours a week and make $160k/year but have to sock away half of it for loans. It's a huge quality of life issue.

This advice is well-taken. I've talked it over with my father quite a bit and while sticker is a lot of money no matter how much you make, he is confident he can cover the costs with no burden on me (I went to undergrad on scholarship, so there is also my college fund to use). He will also cover rent and expenses while I'm in school. That being said, if I can save him money I should try my damnedest, but thankfully quality of life and debt are two things that won't be an issue for me.

Well that changes everything doesn't it. Definitely NW.

I agree. If you're not paying for it with interest accruing loans, go to the school that you like.

[03152016]

I would recommend retaking, not to get into HYS, but to get more money at NU. For 75% of the class, the options coming out of NU and HLS are very similar. I'd say 80% of people out of NU can get big law if they want it, and maybe that's 95% at HLS. It's hard to work 60 hours a week and make $160k/year but have to sock away half of it for loans. It's a huge quality of life issue.

This advice is well-taken. I've talked it over with my father quite a bit and while sticker is a lot of money no matter how much you make, he is confident he can cover the costs with no burden on me (I went to undergrad on scholarship, so there is also my college fund to use). He will also cover rent and expenses while I'm in school. That being said, if I can save him money I should try my damnedest, but thankfully quality of life and debt are two things that won't be an issue for me.

Well that changes everything doesn't it. Definitely NW.

I agree. If you're not paying for it with interest accruing loans, go to the school that you like.

inb4 inheritance

[Law Sauce]

I would recommend retaking, not to get into HYS, but to get more money at NU. For 75% of the class, the options coming out of NU and HLS are very similar. I'd say 80% of people out of NU can get big law if they want it, and maybe that's 95% at HLS. It's hard to work 60 hours a week and make $160k/year but have to sock away half of it for loans. It's a huge quality of life issue.

This advice is well-taken. I've talked it over with my father quite a bit and while sticker is a lot of money no matter how much you make, he is confident he can cover the costs with no burden on me (I went to undergrad on scholarship, so there is also my college fund to use). He will also cover rent and expenses while I'm in school. That being said, if I can save him money I should try my damnedest, but thankfully quality of life and debt are two things that won't be an issue for me.

Well that changes everything doesn't it. Definitely NW.

I agree. If you're not paying for it with interest accruing loans, go to the school that you like.

As long as the school you like is the best you get into or at least is a T14. Don't go to Wustl over NW because you like it better.

[lecsa]

.

[rayiner]

I would recommend retaking, not to get into HYS, but to get more money at NU.

For 75% of the class, the options coming out of NU and HLS are very similar. I'd say 80% of people out of NU can get big law if they want it, and maybe that's 95% at HLS. Then there are maybe 10% at HLS that can get a really elite job that only a negligible percentage can get at NU (WLRK, Susman, feeder clerkship). For the remaining 75% of people, you're looking at ending up at a big law firm, either with or without an intervening clerkship.

For the people who don't manage to get big law, PAY-E limits the pain by limiting loan payments to at most 10% of discretionary income. That mitigates most of the "big law or kill self" pressure. The real problem is what happens when you do get big law. Working at a big firm is a huge grind, and most people don't last very long. Unless you get WLRK, Susman, etc, it will take a long time to pay off your loans even making a market salary.

If you can get your LSAT above 170, with a 3.85 you'd be looking at maybe half to full tuition at NU. There was a time, when I was in your shoes, where I would've gone to HLS over NU with $100k in a heartbeat. Now, I think: "shit, $100k is basically an extra 3-4 years of working big law to pay down your loans." Unless your goals are feeder/SCOTUS level, the bump from HLS just isn't worth that much money.

And don't take this as a "bitter grad" trope, either. I worked at a great firm, now I have a great clerkship. I really love being a lawyer, and I'd totally do it again in a heartbeat, even at sticker. But I'd also love that $100k. Being able to afford not living like a college student a few years earlier. Even though I love my job, it's hard to work 60 hours a week and make $160k/year but have to sock away half of it for loans. It's a huge quality of life issue.

Unless we treat every state clerkship, small firm gig, school funded position or unemployment as "self-selected," note my incredulity, substantially less than 95% of Harvard, or 80% of NU, can depend on landing market paying biglaw. Seems a bit rosy on both ends IMO. But carry on

At least with NU, we don't have to speculate, because they post a detailed salary breakdown.
Take the 284 grads, back out the 24 JD-MBAs who went the business route (at six figure salaries) and the 18 folks who got non school funded permanent PI/gov jobs. That leaves 242 who maybe wanted big law. Indeed, that's pessimistic because it assumes all the unemployed or state clerkship folks wanted big law, but in practice those folks were disproportionately ones looking for PI/gov, areas where hiring has cratered much worse than big law.

Remembering to back out the JD-MBAs, 136 got 160k. 22 got fed clerkships. 35 got 100-160, which is market in places like Milwaukee (110) or Philly (125). That's 80%.