Top Law Schools

Here's my situation:

Me: 3.8/156 low income ethnic minority

Admits:
BC - no merit aid (final), possibly need based aid
George Mason - 15k merit (final)
Penn State -
UConn -
American -
Brooklyn - 14k merit, 12k need
Michigan State - 75% tuition
Villanova - 33k merit (final)
Hofstra - 40k merit
New York Law - 40k merit
Suffolk - Full tuition (final)

Blank = no word yet.

WL

BU, GW, UCLA, Fordham.

Waiting on a few other dream schools with 0% of admission.

If speaking purely about cost and program strength (employment stats, market access, etc) what are my serious options here? I know this is an incomplete picture because schools are still reconsidering my award packs as part of my negotiation letters (those without "final" near them) but I wanted to start a discussion now before April when I have to decide.

I live in MA and would like to get a job in MA or NY preferably; DC is good as well. Schools such as Michigan state, Penn State, and Villanova were once options but not anymore (for family reasons) and therefore are here only for leverage reasons. As for what I'd like to practice, not entirely sure yet, so I'll need flexibility. Graduating undergrad with a business degree (might pursue a legal path that compliments it).


Questions:
For Massachusetts - what if I'm left with BC no money and Suffolk full ride? What's the best course?

For NY - Will Hofstra, Brooklyn, or NYLS give me a better chance than BC? Brooklyn and NYLS have had some controversy surrounding employment stats and they are quite expensive (mitigated by awards) but they aren't the strongest programs sending students into NYC market.

For DC - If my NYC schools won't give me a good chance at the NYC market, does it make more sense to go to George Mason/American for a better chance in the DC market?

I'd really appreciate some feedback.

Retake is the only answer. If you want MA, then BC/BU with $$ is the best option outside of the T-14. It will be the best thing you can do for your future career.

Winston1984 wrote:Retake is the only answer. If you want MA, then BC/BU with $$ is the best option outside of the T-14. It will be the best thing you can do for your future career.

Thanks and I'll consider retaking once I hear back from all schools and final award offers. I'll need to work within the confines of my current situation until then. Thanks for the MA advice. Any one else have thoughts?

souman5 wrote:

Winston1984 wrote:Retake is the only answer. If you want MA, then BC/BU with $$ is the best option outside of the T-14. It will be the best thing you can do for your future career.

Thanks and I'll consider retaking once I hear back from all schools and final award offers. I'll need to work within the confines of my current situation until then. Thanks for the MA advice. Any one else have thoughts?

Retake is the only answer.

Post removed.

Thanks gals. Different takes by any?

Nope, you should re-take. You're options will undoubtedly be better if you improve the LSAT and try again next year. Getting just 5 more questions right could totally change your entire life. But, you should really be trying to at least get into the mid 160's, you're options there could be fantastic.

BU/BC at sticker is a very bad financial investment. Youll have about a 2/3 chance of not being able to pay your loans off comfortably. You have a fantastic GPA. You need a matching LSAT. Don't settle for less than a strong regional with a good scholarship. If you hit BU/BC's median (163/4?) they will give you good money. And if you absolutely rock the LSAT, theres another school in Massachusetts that's not off the table.

Nova wrote:BU/BC at sticker is a very bad financial investment. Youll have about a 2/3 chance of not being able to pay your loans off comfortably. You have a fantastic GPA. You need a matching LSAT. Don't settle for less than a strong regional with a good scholarship. If you hit BU/BC's median (163/4?) they will give you good money. And if you absolutely rock the LSAT, theres another school in Massachusetts that's not off the table.

Given that, why wouldn't Hofstra/NYLS/Suffolk at full tuition scholarship be better then?

souman5 wrote:

Nova wrote:BU/BC at sticker is a very bad financial investment. Youll have about a 2/3 chance of not being able to pay your loans off comfortably. You have a fantastic GPA. You need a matching LSAT. Don't settle for less than a strong regional with a good scholarship. If you hit BU/BC's median (163/4?) they will give you good money. And if you absolutely rock the LSAT, theres another school in Massachusetts that's not off the table.

Given that, why wouldn't Hofstra/NYLS/Suffolk at full tuition scholarship be better then?

Because theses schools are, in common TLS parlance, "dumpster fires". For one, the full tuition scholly from those schools almost certainly come with stipulations (which you should never assume you'll maintain) and two, you still have to pay cost of living, which will easily exceed 50k and perhaps far more depending on some of your personal circumstances. For a fraction's chance at a decent-paying job out of one of these schools (i.e. better paying than an undergrad degree can yield you) they arent worth a dime.

daleearnhardt123 wrote:

souman5 wrote:

Nova wrote:BU/BC at sticker is a very bad financial investment. Youll have about a 2/3 chance of not being able to pay your loans off comfortably. You have a fantastic GPA. You need a matching LSAT. Don't settle for less than a strong regional with a good scholarship. If you hit BU/BC's median (163/4?) they will give you good money. And if you absolutely rock the LSAT, theres another school in Massachusetts that's not off the table.

Given that, why wouldn't Hofstra/NYLS/Suffolk at full tuition scholarship be better then?

Because theses schools are, in common TLS parlance, "dumpster fires". For one, the full tuition scholly from those schools almost certainly come with stipulations (which you should never assume you'll maintain) and two, you still have to pay cost of living, which will easily exceed 50k and perhaps far more depending on some of your personal circumstances. For a fraction's chance at a decent-paying job out of one of these schools (i.e. better paying than an undergrad degree can yield you) they aren't worth a dime.

Suffolk's offer bears has no stipulations (called and verified) and renews automatically while the others are fairly easy to meet (top 50% of class). I can also mitigate cost at Suffolk by living at home - but I get your point about the job issue. For clarity can we break this down by the specific data (ABA employment statistics).

You can do that breakdown of the data by going to http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/ and checking out each school's statistics (look for "Score Reports").

A. Nony Mouse wrote:You can do that breakdown of the data by going to http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/ and checking out each school's statistics (look for "Score Reports").

Thanks I've used the site before though admittedly I don't understand the "Employment score" and what that percent represents (it isn't % employed).

souman5 wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:You can do that breakdown of the data by going to http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/ and checking out each school's statistics (look for "Score Reports").

Thanks I've used the site before though admittedly I don't understand the "Employment score" and what that percent represents (it isn't % employed).

The site takes a little exploring. When you're at a particular school's page, the default is the "key stats" page - if you click on the next tab it says "Job Characteristics," and that lets you see the data that goes into the employment score; you can also sort by the kind of employer and by location. For instance, this http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers shows you a breakdown of jobs acquired by BU grads, by kind of employer. (BU is by no means a bad school, it's just that if you're considering BU at sticker, you need to consider whether the chance of getting a job that lets you repay the debt is high enough to make the investment worthwhile. Salary at the smaller firms - 50 attorneys and below - may well be $40-50K, for instance.)

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

souman5 wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:You can do that breakdown of the data by going to http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/ and checking out each school's statistics (look for "Score Reports").

Thanks I've used the site before though admittedly I don't understand the "Employment score" and what that percent represents (it isn't % employed).

The site takes a little exploring. When you're at a particular school's page, the default is the "key stats" page - if you click on the next tab it says "Job Characteristics," and that lets you see the data that goes into the employment score; you can also sort by the kind of employer and by location. For instance, this http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers shows you a breakdown of jobs acquired by BU grads, by kind of employer. (BU is by no means a bad school, it's just that if you're considering BU at sticker, you need to consider whether the chance of getting a job that lets you repay the debt is high enough to make the investment worthwhile. Salary at the smaller firms - 50 attorneys and below - may well be $40-50K, for instance.)

What if they are all federal loans (to which I qualify and take out enough for finance all 3 years)? I'd qualify for the 10 year low income plans for federal loans. I'm not saying that taking out the loans and paying them down for 10 years is optimal, but if I accepted Suffolk, minimized loans by living at home, and end up getting paid in the lower income brackets I can get it forgiven after the 10 years. BC at sticker could be the same if I take all federal and the rest would be forgiven (250k).

edit: not saying this is optimal or ideal, but isn't that an option? (I'm posing the possibility for discussion of all my options. Want a clear picture before making a decision).

souman5 wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

souman5 wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:You can do that breakdown of the data by going to http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/ and checking out each school's statistics (look for "Score Reports").

Thanks I've used the site before though admittedly I don't understand the "Employment score" and what that percent represents (it isn't % employed).

The site takes a little exploring. When you're at a particular school's page, the default is the "key stats" page - if you click on the next tab it says "Job Characteristics," and that lets you see the data that goes into the employment score; you can also sort by the kind of employer and by location. For instance, this http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers shows you a breakdown of jobs acquired by BU grads, by kind of employer. (BU is by no means a bad school, it's just that if you're considering BU at sticker, you need to consider whether the chance of getting a job that lets you repay the debt is high enough to make the investment worthwhile. Salary at the smaller firms - 50 attorneys and below - may well be $40-50K, for instance.)

What if they are all federal loans (to which I qualify and take out enough for finance all 3 years)? I'd qualify for the 10 year low income plans for federal loans. I'm not saying that taking out the loans and paying them down for 10 years is optimal, but if I accepted Suffolk, minimized loans by living at home, and end up getting paid in the lower income brackets I can get it forgiven after the 10 years. BC at sticker could be the same if I take all federal and the rest would be forgiven (250k).

edit: not saying this is optimal or ideal, but isn't that an option? (I'm posing the possibility for discussion of all my options. Want a clear picture before making a decision).

10 year forgiveness only exists for public interest people. And Obama has proposed capping public interest forgiveness at 57.5k. His proposal might not happen this year, but this demonstrates extreme instability for the program (its hard to imagine Republicans will oppose the proposal). You can find more info about this proposal in other TLS threads if you search for a few minutes. If a cap does go through its unclear exactly who it would apply to, in part because the language will change dramatically; but it could easily apply to your loans from 2L and 3L and could possibly apply to all your loans.

What if they are all federal loans (to which I qualify and take out enough for finance all 3 years)? I'd qualify for the 10 year low income plans for federal loans. I'm not saying that taking out the loans and paying them down for 10 years is optimal, but if I accepted Suffolk, minimized loans by living at home, and end up getting paid in the lower income brackets I can get it forgiven after the 10 years. BC at sticker could be the same if I take all federal and the rest would be forgiven (250k).

edit: not saying this is optimal or ideal, but isn't that an option? (I'm posing the possibility for discussion of all my options. Want a clear picture before making a decision).

10 year forgiveness only exists for public interest people. And Obama has proposed capping public interest forgiveness at 57.5k. His proposal might not happen this year, but this demonstrates extreme instability for the program (its hard to imagine Republicans will oppose the proposal). You can find more info about this proposal in other TLS threads if you search for a few minutes. If a cap does go through its unclear exactly who it would apply to, in part because the language will change dramatically; but it could easily apply to your loans from 2L and 3L and could possibly apply to all your loans.

Right on the PI stuff (I've read most PI forums here and talked to people practicing and think I have a good handle of what to expect). What about my DC options? I've looked up their numbers and George Mason doesn't seem bad to get a government job (although that doesn't tell me if it requires a JD since only 55% of the class of 2012 did).

I'm WL at GW but if I get off, perhaps I can negotiate a higher deal with GMason (I'm nervous about American because of their employment stats)

Right on the PI stuff (I've read most PI forums here and talked to people practicing and think I have a good handle of what to expect). What about my DC options? I've looked up their numbers and George Mason doesn't seem bad to get a government job (although that doesn't tell me if it requires a JD since only 55% of the class of 2012 did).

I'm WL at GW but if I get off, perhaps I can negotiate a higher deal with GMason (I'm nervous about American because of their employment stats)

Mason's stats are actually about the same as American's - 11% of their 2012 class was employed by the school, so less than 40% of their grads actually got LT/FT legal jobs. Not good odds. Also, the 20% of their class that got government jobs are likely not all FedGov. GMU is a small fish in the DC pond.

I doubt GWU will give you much against the Mason scholarship, but it'd be worth a shot. Regardless, don't worry about that until you get off the WL.

deuceindc wrote:

Right on the PI stuff (I've read most PI forums here and talked to people practicing and think I have a good handle of what to expect). What about my DC options? I've looked up their numbers and George Mason doesn't seem bad to get a government job (although that doesn't tell me if it requires a JD since only 55% of the class of 2012 did).

I'm WL at GW but if I get off, perhaps I can negotiate a higher deal with GMason (I'm nervous about American because of their employment stats)

Mason's stats are actually about the same as American's - 11% of their 2012 class was employed by the school, so less than 40% of their grads actually got LT/FT legal jobs. Not good odds. Also, the 20% of their class that got government jobs are likely not all FedGov. GMU is a small fish in the DC pond.

I doubt GWU will give you much against the Mason scholarship, but it'd be worth a shot. Regardless, don't worry about that until you get off the WL.

What's your take on my BC/Suffolk dilemma?

Thanks and I'll consider retaking once I hear back from all schools and final award offers.

You are not thinking (clearly). A higher score and schools will pay you to attend. Don't be in such a rush. (I only clicked on this thread to see why it had to be decided by April 15, and I see the answer is nothing.....)

Big Dog wrote:

Thanks and I'll consider retaking once I hear back from all schools and final award offers.

You are not thinking (clearly). A higher score and schools will pay you to attend. Don't be in such a rush. (I only clicked on this thread to see why it had to be decided by April 15, and I see the answer is nothing.....)

April 15th deposit deadlines. I am thinking clearly. Not thinking clearly would be not making a decision with a complete picture (I'm not opposed to retaking and pushing, but blocking discussion about my current options doesn't really answer the OP).

souman5 wrote: the others are fairly easy to meet (top 50% of class). I can also mitigate cost at Suffolk by living at home

I think your confidence is unfounded.
Do they stack sections? What percentage of recipients keep their scholarships? I think that information is mandatory for them to disclose.

Post removed.

What type of URM are you?

Gooner91 wrote:

souman5 wrote: the others are fairly easy to meet (top 50% of class). I can also mitigate cost at Suffolk by living at home

I think your confidence is unfounded.
Do they stack sections? What percentage of recipients keep their scholarships? I think that information is mandatory for them to disclose.

This provides some clarity: "85% of students awarded Trustee Merit or Sargent Scholarships retain their scholarships in their second year of study." https://www.suffolk.edu/law/admission-a ... /20959.php

- I received a Sargent Scholarship which is why I'm confident I'd keep the value of my loans (at least through 2L) More on the scholarship: "o Sargent Scholarships are awarded based on financial need and academic qualifications. A Sargent Scholarship recipient who is eligible to continue their enrollment at Suffolk but whose GPA falls below 3.0 and therefore loses their Sargent Scholarship will receive 75% of their original Sargent Scholarship amount as a Trustee Grant if they apply for financial aid by the appropriate deadlines for returning students and continue to demonstrate financial need."