Environmental Law Forum

[vanburenboys]

Hey Guys,

I’m having a hell of time deciding where to attend law school and I wanted to get your advice. I want to practice environmental law, but I understand that your interests may change throughout the course of law school.

Below is some pertinent information:

-I’ve worked in the law field (but not environmental law) for some years now, so I think I have some idea of what I’m getting myself into.
-3.6/166 (taken the lsat 3 times)
-Considering : Lewis & Clark (32K scholarship per year), William & Mary (23K scholarship per year), Minnesota (20k scholarship per year), Oregon (17,500 scholarship per year) Wisconsin (?)
- Still Waiting to hear back from Colorado, Washington , Vanderbilt, Yale (ha!)
- Besides the scholarships, I’ll be paying for school through student loans.
- Ideally, I would like to work for a federal or state agency or for a non-profit. I would love to work in some sort of policy area and I’m considering pursuing a joint-degree in public policy. I understand that these jobs are very competitive. I’m open to working for corporations or larger firms for a few years.
- I am very flexible as to where I want to live. I guess if I had to pick I would say the Pacific Northwest or DC.

For all of those students and graduates practicing environmental law, what are your thoughts on top ranked schools vs. top ranked envir. Law programs. I am aware that you shouldn’t put a lot of weight into specialty rankings, but rather you should use them as a tiebreaker between similarly ranked schools. Obviously, if you get into a T14 school you would probably be better severed attending one of those schools over Vermont, Lewis & Clark, Pace, etc. But what about between Minnesota and L&C or Colorado and L&C? At what point do you start to seriously consider envir. Law program rankings?

Sorry for the lengthy post. Seat deposits are around the corner, and like most prospective law students I’m a little stressed at the moment.

Thanks,
MVB

[sublime]

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[vanburenboys]

Where do you want to work? Or where do you have ties?

I would prefer to work in the Pacific Northwest, but I'm not 100% set on that. Currently work in the Midwest.

[sublime]

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[vanburenboys]

Where do you want to work? Or where do you have ties?

I would prefer to work in the Pacific Northwest, but I'm not 100% set on that.

Oops. I now see that was in the OP. My bad. Too much reading tonight, it seems!

Ummmm, Idk much about the Pacific Northwest region, although I have heard that UW with a scholarship would be where you are aiming. Do you have ties to the PNW? It is a notoriously difficult market to break into.


Also, if you don't want to work in Minnesota or Wisconsin, you can't go to any of those schools, so you can probably cross them off.

Yeah, I've heard that about the Pacific Northwest market as well. I have exactly 0 ties to the area, I just love it. Puts me in a tough spot.

Any idea on how portable a degree from L&C is? Do environmental agencies/ non-profits look kindly on a degree from L&C? I've heard not to put too much weight in specialty rankings, not sure if this applies to environmental law.

[sublime]

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[Turtledove]

A few things here:

Definitely stay away from Lewis and Clark. Specialty rankings really don't mean anything and Lewis & Clark has very bad employment scores (you'd only have about a 50/50 chance of ever finding full time employment as a lawyer from L&C). Environmental law is very competitive and if you want to work for a federal agency or non-profit in this field you really need to go to a T-14.

MN and W&M would both be reasonably decisions at that price if (1) you were completely willing to live in downstate VA or MN and (2) you are completely okay with working small law doing personal injury, family law etc.

I also think you underperformed your numbers with this cycle. I would definitely reapply next cycle and consider a retake.

[vanburenboys]

Thanks for the advice. I've checked out lst before, but I'll have to look at it with a diligent eye. Tough decisions to be made.

[Winston1984]

Washington with some $ would definitely be your best bet, but I agree that your cycle should've been better. Any C&F issues? Bad LORs?

[kalvano]

I have exactly 0 ties to the area, I just love it. Puts me in a tough spot.

Let me save you some heartbreak right now. You're not going to score the P/NW market.

[vanburenboys]

A few things here:

Definitely stay away from Lewis and Clark. Specialty rankings really don't mean anything and Lewis & Clark has very bad employment scores (you'd only have about a 50/50 chance of ever finding full time employment as a lawyer from L&C). Environmental law is very competitive and if you want to work for a federal agency or non-profit in this field you really need to go to a T-14.

MN and W&M would both be reasonably decisions at that price if (1) you were completely willing to live in downstate VA or MN and (2) you are completely okay with working small law doing personal injury, family law etc.

I also think you underperformed your numbers with this cycle. I would definitely reapply next cycle and consider a retake.

Interesting. I never really considered that I might have under performed with my numbers. If I take the LSAT again that will be my fourth time (3rd time in 2 year period). At what point do law schools begin to frown on that many retakes? I guess it couldn't hurt, and I'm guessing most law schools don't really care as long as you are in line with or improving their numbers. So I guess I answered my own question.

[vanburenboys]

Washington with some $ would definitely be your best bet, but I agree that your cycle should've been better. Any C&F issues? Bad LORs?

I've never been arrested, not even a parking ticket on my record. And my recommendations came from a professor I am still close with and the owner of the small law firm I work in. So I don't think there are any issues on those fronts.

[rebexness]

Are those the only schools you applied to? I don't necessarily think your cycle was bad- just that you should have applied more broadly.

Getting 3+ points by retaking would be a gamechanger, however.

[Nova]

At what point do you start to seriously consider envir. Law program rankings?

never

[vanburenboys]

I have exactly 0 ties to the area, I just love it. Puts me in a tough spot.

Let me save you some heartbreak right now. You're not going to score the P/NW market.

It's that tough of a market, huh?

According to this article, Washington seems to have one of the best graduate-to-job opening ratios in the country (albeit some of these jobs are going to graduates form different states).

http://www.economicmodeling.com/2014/01 ... continues/

But what you're suggesting is that unless you have connections in the area you shouldn't attend a law school in the Northwest? Isn't the point of attending law school to make connections in the area via interning, etc?

[vanburenboys]

Are those the only schools you applied to? I don't necessarily think your cycle was bad- just that you should have applied more broadly.

Getting 3+ points by retaking would be a gamechanger, however.

The unfortunate thing is that I left three questions blank on the LSAT. Still kicking myself.

I also applied to Virginia but was just denied. I didn't get my 166 score until January and I ended up missing a lot of the deadlines for the t14 schools.

[vanburenboys]

At what point do you start to seriously consider envir. Law program rankings?

never

Your words of advice fit well with your profile picture.

[worldtraveler]

There are t10 grads with great resumes and they still can't get a job in environmental law. Don't go with any of these options.

[kalvano]

I have exactly 0 ties to the area, I just love it. Puts me in a tough spot.

Let me save you some heartbreak right now. You're not going to score the P/NW market.

It's that tough of a market, huh?

According to this article, Washington seems to have one of the best graduate-to-job opening ratios in the country (albeit some of these jobs are going to graduates form different states).

http://www.economicmodeling.com/2014/01 ... continues/

But what you're suggesting is that unless you have connections in the area you shouldn't attend a law school in the Northwest? Isn't the point of attending law school to make connections in the area via interning, etc?

The P/NW has a tiny, tiny legal market, and a ton of people want to go there (think H/Y/S and other T14). The problem with your plan is that you'll be attending a very regional school in a place you have no ties to, with a very tiny legal market that is highly sought after. Each one of those things is bad on its own, but all together and the odds are very likely that you'll end up jobless and unable to get a job because everyone will be suspicious of you because you aren't from there, I see job postings in the P/NW frequently that explicitly say "must have strong ties to the P/NW" or something to that effect. It's not even a soft requirement, it's a hard line like GPA or law review.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

There are t10 grads with great resumes and they still can't get a job in environmental law. Don't go with any of these options.

It's not usually about rankings and resumes, it's usually about fit, commitment, interning exactly where you want to work. OP you could try to score a low level job/paid internship with the agency/firm/non-profit before you went to law school. This would help you figure out if environmental law was really for you.