Top Law Schools

Thanks.

People will tell you to retake because you should, not because these aren't elite schools. Get outta here with that nonsense.

That being said, retake June and see what happens. No downside at all, and you might get more scholarship money or better schools. That's always a good thing.

If you don't score higher in June- so you're cool with Idaho small law, will pay 50K out of pocket, and only have 5K debt? Then do that. None of the other schools make much sense.

Honestly though, I would probably just keep your current job. If you have only been working a year and have 50K saved up that must be a really sweet gig, especially by Idaho standards. I wouldn't give that up to go to law school.

Retaking is the only option here. You have a strong possibility of losing any scholarship with a stip, so I would factor in the full price for years 2 and 3. You don't need a 170+ to get a job in Idaho, but you should be going for free. Nebraska and Arkansas schools are out if you don't have ties to the area.

our advice is to retake, so take it or leave it

BigZuck wrote:If you don't score higher in June- so you're cool with Idaho small law, will pay 50K out of pocket, and only have 5K debt? Then do that. None of the other schools make much sense.

Honestly though, I would probably just keep your current job. If you have only been working a year and have 50K saved up that must be a really sweet gig, especially by Idaho standards. I wouldn't give that up to go to law school.

My current job (self-employed) is probably not long-term enough to continue doing (I have thought about it).

I am cool with Idaho small law, and I do agree that it makes the most sense... just wanted to see other opinions I guess.

Winston1984 wrote:Retaking is the only option here. You have a strong possibility of losing any scholarship with a stip, so I would factor in the full price for years 2 and 3. You don't need a 170+ to get a job in Idaho, but you should be going for free. Nebraska and Arkansas schools are out if you don't have ties to the area.

I agree that Nebraska and Arkansas are pretty much out. As far as stipulations, they're all the fairly standard top 50%... except for Wyoming and Arkansas, which are the equivalent of "good standing" at 2.0. So, based on stipulation odds (and considering that Arkansas isn't a great option), Wyoming would be the choice.

If you are not going to retake at least try to get Idaho to drop the stip to "good academic standing" or plan to drop out if you lose the scholarship.

Also is the COA you posted what you are financing through loans or would your 50k savings come off of that 55k COA? So then only 5k loans?

If you are not going to retake, you would only need 5k loans, want to work in Idaho small law, they will drop the stips or you will drop out if you lose the scholarship then I think Idaho is the correct choice.

Gooner91 wrote:If you are not going to retake at least try to get Idaho to drop the stip to "good academic standing" or plan to drop out if you lose the scholarship.

Also is the COA you posted what you are financing through loans or would your 50k savings come off of that 55k COA? So then only 5k loans?

The $50,000 savings would come off of any of the COA's listed.

So yes, if I kept the scholarship at Idaho for the 3 years, around $5,000 in loans is my guess at what I'd be looking at.

Without question it's Idaho IF (big if) you can negotiate the stip down to 2.0 or "good academic standing". A top half of the class stip is a risky proposition. If you can't negotiate it, then retake.

If you can, I'm not even sure a retake is necessary here. I'd check LSN to see if 3.6-3.7 with 170+ can land full rides anywhere (maybe Cornell and Northwestern?), but other than that possibility, small law in Idaho with 5k debt, and presumably with something to fall back on (your job at present) is justifiable.

The 2.0 stips are reasonable, the others are not. The tuition is more reasonable at some of the schools than others, the job prospects on the other hand are not.

Assuming you're okay with ending up with a low-paying legal job, a non-legal job, or no job at all, these schools are good if you like to take a gamble. It's not just the money, it's the 3 years of your time and money you're giving up as well as forgoing the opportunity to get into a better school. If you like to gamble, go UNLV; it's closer to the casinos. You have a better shot of making money there, and it's not because of the law degree.

But seriously, you're not that far off (LSAT points-wise) from giving yourself a good shot at stronger regional schools. School rankings do not matter; job prospects do. You won't care about a school's student/professor ratio and library size when you're looking for a job. Some regional schools that are near where you're targeting that give you "better" employment prospects, Utah, Arizona, and ASU (since you apparently are more focused on the western States).

Redouble your LSAT studing, expand your application pool to schools with higher job prospects, get scholly $$$ from those schools, and invest that money you've worked hard to save into a legal education that will give you a job so you can repay yourself.

First, forget all about USNWR rank. It's totally irrelevant.

If you're happy with living and working in Idaho, then go to UI. You have ties (you grew up there) and the COA is very reasonable. Drop out if you end up in the bottom half of your class after your first year.

ETA: Although retaking is generally a good idea, it's not as obvious to me as it is to others that it's the "only option" in your case. It looks like you already have close to a full ride at UI. And, unless you score much higher on the LSAT, you aren't going to put yourself in a meaningfully stronger position. Sure, if you improved your score 5 points you might get more scholarship money from another regional school. But given that you don't have ties in those regions, it's not going to make much sense to go to one of those school over UI.

If you don't retake, go to UNLV and try to negotiate to $65-$70,000 cost of attendance. Regardless of ranking, it is an urban market model with great externships during the year, a very small FT class (approx. 100), and it owns the local market. Also you will definitely get in-state residency 2L and 3L year so not sure if you factored that into your cost of attendance.

Definitely your best bet out of the three given that you won't retake and that you are willing to start of your career in Nevada or possibly Arizona.

Make sure when you are ready to negotiate that you are prepared to say I will accept on the spot if you meet me at "x" and will not use your response to renegotiate other offers.

downinDtown wrote:The 2.0 stips are reasonable, the others are not. The tuition is more reasonable at some of the schools than others, the job prospects on the other hand are not.

Assuming you're okay with ending up with a low-paying legal job, a non-legal job, or no job at all, these schools are good if you like to take a gamble. It's not just the money, it's the 3 years of your time and money you're giving up as well as forgoing the opportunity to get into a better school. If you like to gamble, go UNLV; it's closer to the casinos. You have a better shot of making money there, and it's not because of the law degree.

But seriously, you're not that far off (LSAT points-wise) from giving yourself a good shot at stronger regional schools. School rankings do not matter; job prospects do. You won't care about a school's student/professor ratio and library size when you're looking for a job. Some regional schools that are near where you're targeting that give you "better" employment prospects, Utah, Arizona, and ASU (since you apparently are more focused on the western States).

Redouble your LSAT studing, expand your application pool to schools with higher job prospects, get scholly $$$ from those schools, and invest that money you've worked hard to save into a legal education that will give you a job so you can repay yourself.

I did apply to Utah this cycle, and I may get in still... but most likely without any money. I would guess that I'd be looking at somewhere around $125,000 COA total for Utah as things stand now.

I'm just wondering why UNLV would be considered such a gamble in comparison. UNLV and Utah's 2011 NALP reports look extremely similar (with fairly high reported salary numbers as well). Summarizing it, their LST employment scores are 60.2% and 60.4%, respectively. I guess UNLV seems like a gamble at ~$85,000 for 3 years with a 50% stipulation... but I don't think it could get much better than that (see below).

I may not be far off on the LSAT for getting in to Utah/Arizona/ASU, but I probably am far enough off for serious money at those schools (I don't think a 165+ LSAT is possible for me).

rpupkin wrote:First, forget all about USNWR rank. It's totally irrelevant.

If you're happy with living and working in Idaho, then go to UI. You have ties (you grew up there) and the COA is very reasonable. Drop out if you end up in the bottom half of your class after your first year.

ETA: Although retaking is generally a good idea, it's not as obvious to me as it is to others that it's the "only option" in your case. It looks like you already have close to a full ride at UI. And, unless you score much higher on the LSAT, you aren't going to put yourself in a meaningfully stronger position. Sure, if you improved your score 5 points you might get more scholarship money from another regional school. But given that you don't have ties in those regions, it's not going to make much sense to go to one of those school over UI.

This is basically what I see.

And I know not to put too much stock into the rankings... but it is at least a way to organize them I guess. That's why I see UNLV as an option despite their drop in the rankings.

Idaho does make the most sense, so I agree with most everyone saying Idaho; just wanted to see if there was any other opinion out there. Thanks to everyone so far.

raininthedesert wrote:If you don't retake, go to UNLV and try to negotiate to $65-$70,000 cost of attendance. Regardless of ranking, it is an urban market model with great externships during the year, a very small FT class (approx. 100), and it owns the local market. Also you will definitely get in-state residency 2L and 3L year so not sure if you factored that into your cost of attendance.

Definitely your best bet out of the three given that you won't retake and that you are willing to start of your career in Nevada or possibly Arizona.

Make sure when you are ready to negotiate that you are prepared to say I will accept on the spot if you meet me at "x" and will not use your response to renegotiate other offers.

I was looking for someone to say UNLV.

I HIGHLY doubt they would give me more... I'm actually surprised they gave me anything in the full-time program as it is (given that I am right at the 25% LSAT while at/above the 75% GPA).

Those "givens" that you listed are fine with me. I just think that ~$85,000 is definitely as good as it can be (and residency is considered in COA for 2L/3L; it is for all of the options). I definitely would try to negotiate, though, if I decide to go that route.

How does UNLV place with no ties to Nevada? LST says 72% of the class employed in Nevada.

Gooner91 wrote:How does UNLV place with no ties to Nevada? LST says 72% of the class employed in Nevada.

I think it's a really bad idea to go to a school like UNLV with no ties to Nevada. I know you can find examples of people who did it and came out ok, but it seems like a high-risk proposition to me. Based on what I've seen in threads like this one, the sway of the USNWR rankings do the most damage in situations where an applicant is choosing among various small regional schools.

Idaho will make sense IF you can negotiate a better stipulation. Top half is too harsh, especially if Idaho has the practice of putting lots of people with scholarship stipulations in the same section so that most will lose it and end up paying full price.

Even if you negotiate the scholarship stipulation are you sure you want to burn 50k in savings plus 3 years of earnings (and small investments in retirement and SS), and still borrow money just to get a 40k/yr. job doing family law or pursuing judgments against people who owe money on their car loan or credit card. You do have some income potential if you're able to get a start; and you could easily make 70-90k after 7 or 8 years, which is good money in Idaho. So that's a plus. The downside is a whopping 49% of Idaho graduates had full-time, long-term, legal employment 9 months after graduation. Meaning you could burn all those savings and all that time for nothing.

Just curious, but why not Wyoming? You only need a 2.0 to keep your scholarship- and it boarders Idaho, so maybe you can go back ( is Idaho the only law school in the state)? Im not familiar with the Mountain West at all, so perhaps Idaho/ Wyoming is very secular and you need to go to school there ( in which case go to Idaho and drop if you lose the scholarship).

Do any of these schools fail students? Do any 1Ls usually earn grades below a C? ( basically, what is their curve). This may change things.

I think it comes down to Idaho vs. Wyoming. Perhaps use Wyoming's stipulations when you ask Idaho to lower theirs?

Actually I was advising him to not look at rankings and my advice regarding UNLV was not based on its past, current or future rankings. If you go to a small regional school and, in my opinion, if you go to any school below T14...you should select a law school in an urban market where it is the #1 feeder school. "Ties" to Nevada are a misnomer. Nevada historically has a transient population and very few were born there (especially in the Las Vegas market). Going to school at UNLV and building the relationships through externships is all that is necessary.

Please also note that the poster provided specific options without great employment statistics and is adamant about retaking so try not to hyper-focus on picking apart my response out-of-context.

The fact remains that UNLV is a decent non-T14 for its region and very strong for its market. However, the lower end of their class is typically comprised of students who struggle academically prior to being admitted to school but the school's duty and obligation to the State of Nevada is to support all applicants (it's part of their funding); in fact, only a small percentage of out-of-staters are allowed. Unfortunately, if you look at the LSAT data for Nevada residents you will see very low scores on average -- this is also true of the SAT and GMAT. It's just a lower performing state and the in-state schools reflect that in their student bodies. If it were privately funded it could just say no but it can't. The good news is that employers aren't going to hire someone just because they went to law school...your performance matters. There is no issue with jobs from that school in Vegas and Nevada in general if you are Top 2/3 and, in fact, statistics for Vegas and the State suggest there is an undersupply (statistically significant albeit not large) due to people not wanting to live and work in that area. [degenerate drinkers and gamblers as well as personal injury and other ambulance chasers -- although this is likely a Venn diagram -- excluded]

P.S. Idaho and Wyoming are certainly viable options as well if you are committed to remaining there but I suspect you will have no trouble reducing the dollar spread between these schools and UNLV so that all things are equal. Poster above is correct though that all things are not currently equal and Idaho and Wyoming give you the lower debt burden -- but also the worst job prospects.

P.S.S. Assuming OP wants to actually live and work semi-permanently in any of these places. Geographic preference matters and the importance is too easily brushed off by OL's.

raininthedesert wrote:P.S. Idaho and Wyoming are certainly viable options as well if you are committed to remaining there but I suspect you will have not trouble reducing the spread between these schools and UNLV so that all things are equal. Poster above is correct thought that all things are not currently equal and Idaho and Wyoming give you the lower debt burden -- but also the worst job prospects.

I think it's questionable that an Idaho native who goes to law school at the University of Idaho has worse job prospects than an Idaho native who goes to law school at UNLV. As for your suggestion above that statistics show that there are an undersupply of lawyers in Las Vegas, can you provide a source for the OP?

Absolutely...

"Here are the states you should actually be considering if you’re in search of a legal job to fill that ugly employment gap on your résumé: Arizona, New Jersey, Nevada, Wyoming, and for obvious reasons, Alaska."

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... ds/276463/

The other source is data our firm purchases for hiring and other strategic initiatives.

rpupkin wrote:

raininthedesert wrote:P.S. Idaho and Wyoming are certainly viable options as well if you are committed to remaining there but I suspect you will have not trouble reducing the spread between these schools and UNLV so that all things are equal. Poster above is correct thought that all things are not currently equal and Idaho and Wyoming give you the lower debt burden -- but also the worst job prospects.

I think it's questionable that an Idaho native who goes to law school at the University of Idaho has worse job prospects than an Idaho native who goes to law school at UNLV. As for your suggestion above that statistics show that there are an undersupply of lawyers in Las Vegas, can you provide a source for the OP?

I was referring to the employment statistics of each school...NOT to OP's particular likelihood. Focus grasshopper.

raininthedesert wrote:

rpupkin wrote:

raininthedesert wrote:P.S. Idaho and Wyoming are certainly viable options as well if you are committed to remaining there but I suspect you will have not trouble reducing the spread between these schools and UNLV so that all things are equal. Poster above is correct thought that all things are not currently equal and Idaho and Wyoming give you the lower debt burden -- but also the worst job prospects.

I think it's questionable that an Idaho native who goes to law school at the University of Idaho has worse job prospects than an Idaho native who goes to law school at UNLV. As for your suggestion above that statistics show that there are an undersupply of lawyers in Las Vegas, can you provide a source for the OP?

I was referring to the employment statistics of each school...NOT to OP's particular likelihood. Focus grasshopper.

Uh.....this is a thread in which we're trying to offer the OP advice tailored to his circumstances. Meanwhile, you're talking about general employment statistics. It's more than a little ironic that you're telling others to "focus."

raininthedesert wrote:Absolutely...

"Here are the states you should actually be considering if you’re in search of a legal job to fill that ugly employment gap on your résumé: Arizona, New Jersey, Nevada, Wyoming, and for obvious reasons, Alaska."

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... ds/276463/

The other source is data our firm purchases for hiring and other strategic initiatives.

That says that the state graduates an undersupply of lawyers not that there are an undersupply of lawyers in the state.

I was not expecting this much action, but I appreciate it.

northwood wrote:Just curious, but why not Wyoming? You only need a 2.0 to keep your scholarship- and it boarders Idaho, so maybe you can go back ( is Idaho the only law school in the state)? Im not familiar with the Mountain West at all, so perhaps Idaho/ Wyoming is very secular and you need to go to school there ( in which case go to Idaho and drop if you lose the scholarship).

Do any of these schools fail students? Do any 1Ls usually earn grades below a C? ( basically, what is their curve). This may change things.

I think it comes down to Idaho vs. Wyoming. Perhaps use Wyoming's stipulations when you ask Idaho to lower theirs?

All of these states (Idaho, Wyoming, Nevada) border each other, so it's not like I'm going cross-country or anything like that. Not sure how to measure how much that would hurt me going to Wyoming or UNLV. I am not trying to move back to Idaho if I go to either of those schools, though.

University of Idaho is the only law school in the state (ABA-accredited, that is). I actually live closer to University of Utah, and just as close to University of Wyoming... but that does not matter, unfortunately.



For all those saying to negotiate the 2.7 GPA stipulation at Idaho (using Wyoming to counter), I definitely will try.

And again, I am willing to live in any of these places, and I'm not just saying that... very familiar with them all.