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[rpupkin]

If I were you I'd want a full ride to another T10 if all you want is big law.

OP already has a full ride to CLS. The debt from CLS would consist of a combination of carried over undergrad debt and living expenses.

OP: I'm going to depart slightly from the consensus ITT. If you were talking about the difference between a Hamilton at CLS and sticker at HLS, then I would go to CLS. But when the difference is 100K instead of something like 200K, I think it's a closer call.

I have some familiarity with the California job market, and you can get away with a lot more at HLS. If you're below median at CLS, a firm job in LA is far from assured. You might be stuck working at a lower V100 firm in NYC for a few years before you can move out to Cali. If you end up performing poorly in law school, you're going to have wished you went to HLS.

Also, if you happen to do really well in law school, HLS will open up more doors. I understand you're set on big law and don't think you want to do anything else, but students' ideas about what they want to do change all the time during the first year or two of law school.

Are these considerations worth an additional $100K of debt? Perhaps not. But I would think about it carefully.

[Tiago Splitter]

when the difference is 100K instead of something like 200K, I think it's a closer call.

He'll almost certainly lose a lot of that grant money as a 3L if he works biglaw, making the difference more like 125k before we factor in the additional interest he'll accrue on those extra loans.

[almondjoy]

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[kaiser]

Thanks everyone for weighing in, I really appreciate the responses. I'm still sort of worried about what happens if I'm below median at CLS vs below median at HLS, but I'm starting to think that the small increase in risk is worth the huge discount.

If you are below median at CLS, the outcome will likely be the same as if you are below median at Harvard: you will still likely get a perfectly good job post-graduation. Its not like they hire to the very bottom of Harvard's class, but stop right after CLS median. They hire deep into both classes, and the marginal difference, once again, does not justify 100K. Like we have said, for getting a big firm job, CLS is as good as any school in the country, right alongside Harvard.

[aboutmydaylight]

Thanks everyone for weighing in, I really appreciate the responses. I'm still sort of worried about what happens if I'm below median at CLS vs below median at HLS, but I'm starting to think that the small increase in risk is worth the huge discount.

If you are below median at CLS, the outcome will likely be the same as if you are below median at Harvard: you will still likely get a perfectly good job post-graduation. Its not like they hire to the very bottom of Harvard's class, but stop right after CLS median. They hire deep into both classes, and the marginal difference, once again, does not justify 100K. Like we have said, for getting a big firm job, CLS is as good as any school in the country, right alongside Harvard.

OP is targeting LA though, not just any big law. If the goal was NYC this wouldn't even be a question.

[kaiser]

Thanks everyone for weighing in, I really appreciate the responses. I'm still sort of worried about what happens if I'm below median at CLS vs below median at HLS, but I'm starting to think that the small increase in risk is worth the huge discount.

If you are below median at CLS, the outcome will likely be the same as if you are below median at Harvard: you will still likely get a perfectly good job post-graduation. Its not like they hire to the very bottom of Harvard's class, but stop right after CLS median. They hire deep into both classes, and the marginal difference, once again, does not justify 100K. Like we have said, for getting a big firm job, CLS is as good as any school in the country, right alongside Harvard.

OP is targeting LA though, not just any big law. If the goal was NYC this wouldn't even be a question.

He has super connections to LA, and CA is the 2nd biggest target market for CLS students. Not to mention the fact that CLS is known across the country. Its still not really much of a question. He goes back to CA, can say he has spent pretty much his whole life there and wants to come back AND will be a grad of one of the best schools in the country (a school that has representation at all the top firm offices in LA). CA won't be a problem.

[jbagelboy]

Thanks everyone for weighing in, I really appreciate the responses. I'm still sort of worried about what happens if I'm below median at CLS vs below median at HLS, but I'm starting to think that the small increase in risk is worth the huge discount.

If you are below median at CLS, the outcome will likely be the same as if you are below median at Harvard: you will still likely get a perfectly good job post-graduation. Its not like they hire to the very bottom of Harvard's class, but stop right after CLS median. They hire deep into both classes, and the marginal difference, once again, does not justify 100K. Like we have said, for getting a big firm job, CLS is as good as any school in the country, right alongside Harvard.

OP is targeting LA though, not just any big law. If the goal was NYC this wouldn't even be a question.

Again, of all non-NYC markets, Los Angeles won't be a problem with a Columbia degree. Gibson, Latham, Orrick, O'Melveny, Skadden ect are thrilled to get CLS people with ties. I would be more concerned about SF, Boston, or Florida, ect.

[rpupkin]

Thanks everyone for weighing in, I really appreciate the responses. I'm still sort of worried about what happens if I'm below median at CLS vs below median at HLS, but I'm starting to think that the small increase in risk is worth the huge discount.

If you are below median at CLS, the outcome will likely be the same as if you are below median at Harvard: you will still likely get a perfectly good job post-graduation. Its not like they hire to the very bottom of Harvard's class, but stop right after CLS median. They hire deep into both classes, and the marginal difference, once again, does not justify 100K. Like we have said, for getting a big firm job, CLS is as good as any school in the country, right alongside Harvard.

OP is targeting LA though, not just any big law. If the goal was NYC this wouldn't even be a question.

Again, of all non-NYC markets, Los Angeles won't be a problem with a Columbia degree. Gibson, Latham, Orrick, O'Melveny, Skadden ect are thrilled to get CLS people with ties. I would be more concerned about SF, Boston, or Florida, ect.

Maybe you know something I don't, but most of those offices are not going to be "thrilled" with a below median student coming out of CLS, even a student with ties to LA. Neither Gibson nor Latham will bite. You might get a callback from one of the last three, but they'd have to go below their grade cut-offs.

I really think people ITT are underestimating the value of a HLS degree (and overestimating the value of a CLS degree) when you've got crappy grades and you're hoping for a non-NYC market.

[smaug_]

I really think people ITT are underestimating the value of a HLS degree (and overestimating the value of a CLS degree) when you've got crappy grades and you're hoping for a non-NYC market.

I'm a little confused by this post and by how you know this, because the stuff in your post doesn't really ring true for me. (e.g. Latham being more grade selective than O'Melveny)

[rpupkin]

I really think people ITT are underestimating the value of a HLS degree (and overestimating the value of a CLS degree) when you've got crappy grades and you're hoping for a non-NYC market.

I'm a little confused by this post and by how you know this, because the stuff in your post doesn't really ring true for me. (e.g. Latham being more grade selective than O'Melveny)

I fudged on O'Melveny because I don't have specific information about their hiring practices. I know with certainty that Latham LA will not hire a below-median SA from CLS absent an unusual circumstance. Like you, I would expect that O'Melveny wouldn't hire a below-median student from CLS either, but I didn't want to say that because I don't know that for sure.

[kaiser]

I really think people ITT are underestimating the value of a HLS degree (and overestimating the value of a CLS degree) when you've got crappy grades and you're hoping for a non-NYC market.

To the extent that this is an issue (and its not an issue; in fact, its trivial as far as biglaw career), its most certainly more than offset by 100K

[kaiser]

I really think people ITT are underestimating the value of a HLS degree (and overestimating the value of a CLS degree) when you've got crappy grades and you're hoping for a non-NYC market.

I'm a little confused by this post and by how you know this, because the stuff in your post doesn't really ring true for me. (e.g. Latham being more grade selective than O'Melveny)

He is a 0L so I"m not sure what his basis is for any of this. 0L's should not be posting employment advice like this. And that is why I urged OP so strongly to speak with actual graduates, both recent and not so recent so get a better picture.

[smaug_]

I really think people ITT are underestimating the value of a HLS degree (and overestimating the value of a CLS degree) when you've got crappy grades and you're hoping for a non-NYC market.

I'm a little confused by this post and by how you know this, because the stuff in your post doesn't really ring true for me. (e.g. Latham being more grade selective than O'Melveny)

I fudged on O'Melveny because I don't have specific information about their hiring practices. I know with certainty that Latham LA will not hire a below-median SA from CLS absent an unusual circumstance. Like you, I would expect that O'Melveny wouldn't hire a below-median student from CLS either, but I didn't want to say that because I don't know that for sure.

Yeah I don't think many of those firms would hire a below-median CLS student. Below median is pretty bad. I'm not convinced that they would hire a below median H student either, though.

It seems like you're a 0L posting about employment stuff, in which case, lol.

[rpupkin]

I really think people ITT are underestimating the value of a HLS degree (and overestimating the value of a CLS degree) when you've got crappy grades and you're hoping for a non-NYC market.

To the extent that this is an issue (and its not an issue; in fact, its trivial as far as biglaw career), its most certainly more than offset by 100K

I just disagree. It's anecdotal, but I've just seen too many bottom quarter types at HLS get big law jobs out here for me to think that it's just a coincidence. Although it's not rational, the HLS name gets hiring committees hot and bothered. CLS is a good school, but you may as well be coming from Chicago, Duke, or UVA. A below-median student at CLS will struggle as much out here as any other below-median T10 grad.

[smaug_]

I just disagree. It's anecdotal, but I've just seen too many bottom quarter types at HLS get big law jobs out here for me to think that it's just a coincidence. Although it's not rational, the HLS name gets hiring committees hot and bothered. CLS is a good school, but you may as well be coming from Chicago, Duke, or UVA. A below-median student at CLS will struggle as much out here as any other below-median T10 grad.

Again, how do you know this?

[kaiser]

I really think people ITT are underestimating the value of a HLS degree (and overestimating the value of a CLS degree) when you've got crappy grades and you're hoping for a non-NYC market.

To the extent that this is an issue (and its not an issue; in fact, its trivial as far as biglaw career), its most certainly more than offset by 100K

I just disagree. It's anecdotal, but I've just seen too many bottom quarter types at HLS get big law jobs out here for me to think that it's just a coincidence. Although it's not rational, the HLS name gets hiring committees hot and bothered. CLS is a good school, but you may as well be coming from Chicago, Duke, or UVA. A below-median student at CLS will struggle as much out here as any other below-median T10 grad.

So because you made this observation about HLS bottom quarter (and again, I'm taking that with a huge grain of salt, as you haven't attended any law school yet), that somehow means that the inverse is true for bottom quarter CLS? On what basis do you conclude that?

Honestly, you sound like someone who was offered money at CCN, took Harvard, and is trying to justify the decision retroactively. That is literally the precise kind of mindset we are trying to ease OP away from (i.e. the 0L choosing a school mindset). Why do you think not a single actual grad takes your position, or is sharing your anecdotal observations based on actual experience?

[rpupkin]

Honestly, you sound like someone who was offered money at CCN, took Harvard, and is trying to justify the decision retroactively. That is literally the precise kind of mindset we are trying to ease OP away from (i.e. the 0L choosing a school mindset). Why do you think not a single actual grad takes your position, or is sharing your anecdotal observations based on actual experience?

I did not go to either HLS or CLS.

I'm a 2012 grad. I summered at one of the firms on that list of LA biglaw firms, clerked last year, and am now at a different firm.

My anecdotal observation is based on what I know about the hiring standards of at least two of those firms, and anecdotes from friends at other LA offices. I've also been continually surprised at how much weight the HLS name carries with big law firms, judges, and government employers. The CLS name does not have the same effect, at least not in California and DC.

I'm offering my advice in good faith. Like I suggested in my initial post ITT, I have doubts that HLS is worth $100K more than CLS to the OP. But I don't think it's as much of a slam dunk as some are suggesting.

[kaiser]

Honestly, you sound like someone who was offered money at CCN, took Harvard, and is trying to justify the decision retroactively. That is literally the precise kind of mindset we are trying to ease OP away from (i.e. the 0L choosing a school mindset). Why do you think not a single actual grad takes your position, or is sharing your anecdotal observations based on actual experience?

I did not go to either HLS or CLS.

I'm a 2012 grad. I summered at one of the firms on that list of LA biglaw firms, clerked last year, and am now at a different firm.

My anecdotal observation is based on what I know about the hiring standards of at least two of those firms, and anecdotes from friends at other LA offices. I've also been continually surprised at how much weight the HLS name carries with big law firms, judges, and government employers. The CLS name does not have the same effect, at least not in California and DC.

I'm offering my advice in good faith. Like I suggested in my initial post ITT, I have doubts that HLS is worth $100K more than CLS to the OP. But I don't think it's as much of a slam dunk as some are suggesting.

Yet in your post history, you said "Got my score: a 174!" in January of this year. So which one is it? Clearly that post and the one above don't gel, so how about you clarify for us. I'm no mod but I'd imagine one would have no problem banning your account if you are lying in the employment forums, providing false "credentials" to try and legitimize your advice.

Your advice was bullshit in the first place, so don't spew any more please

[banjo]

Yeah, you had that whole cheating thing: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 6&t=221091.

[rpupkin]

Yet in your post history, you said "Got my score: a 174!" in January of this year. So which one is it? Clearly that post and the one above don't gel, so how about you clarify for us...

LOL. Read that thread and figure out what was going on.

[kaiser]

So you like to flame and troll. Thats fine, but isn't a good flame or trolling just a slight bit transparent? Big difference between good trolling and just straight up lying to a kid trying to make an important life decision, and who may actually be swayed by the bullshit you are posting.

[almondjoy]

Yet in your post history, you said "Got my score: a 174!" in January of this year. So which one is it? Clearly that post and the one above don't gel, so how about you clarify for us...

LOL. Read that thread and figure out what was going on.

.

[rpupkin]

So you like to flame and troll. Thats fine, but isn't a good flame or trolling just a slight bit transparent? Big difference between good trolling and just straight up lying to a kid trying to make an important life decision, and who may actually be swayed by the bullshit you are posting.

I'm not trolling in this thread, kaiser. And I've accurately stated my credentials. Speaking of which, what are your credentials? You sure speak with a lot of authority.

Look, I disagree with your statement that the difference between HLS and CLS is "trivial" with respect to a big law career. That might be true in NYC (though I don't know), but I don't find that it's true in California. I am not sure why that position upsets you so much.

[kaiser]

So you like to flame and troll. Thats fine, but isn't a good flame or trolling just a slight bit transparent? Big difference between good trolling and just straight up lying to a kid trying to make an important life decision, and who may actually be swayed by the bullshit you are posting.

I'm not trolling in this thread, kaiser. And I've accurately stated my credentials. Speaking of which, what are your credentials? You sure speak with a lot of authority.

Look, I disagree with your statement that the difference between HLS and CLS is "trivial" with respect to a big law career. That might be true in NYC (though I don't know), but I don't find that it's true in California. I am not sure why that position upsets you so much.

Fine, I'll take you at your word. And even if I agree with you fully that the difference isn't trivial, thats not really the question. The question is whether it is worth 100K. And to that I have a hard time thinking its anything but no. 50K difference? Then it would be more of a debate. But an LA kid wanting biglaw in LA? I just can't see it being worth 100K for the additional safety net, even if it is more than just trivial.

[jbagelboy]

Lol @ the troll

Also as someone who has actually worked in LA and has an SA in SoCal, wuttttt this guy rpupkin, lolll