Top Law Schools

I'm a long-time lurker who relied heavily on TLS for LSAT prep. I highly value the TLS community and I'm hoping for some insight here!

Goals: CA big law (corporate/transactional) with exit options in the Federal Government or as in-house counsel.

I'm planning to stay in the Gropius dorms at Harvard to keep costs down. However, I think the cost of living at UVA is still lower. After accumulated interest, I believe the COA will be around $90k higher at Harvard vs. UVA.

If I don't get CA big law, I'd certainly rather take any big law over a non-big law job.

Harvard may open more doors and offer more "insurance" (employers dig deeper into the class grade-wise). I also think Harvard may place better in CA. However, the Dillard Scholar program at UVA also sounds like a fantastic opportunity. Aside from the money, it claims to offer special mentoring to students. I don't know if it is worth turning down Harvard at such a discount, though. I'd feel especially bad if I chose UVA but struck out trying to get big law. If there are any current/former Dillard Scholars in the TLS community, please share your experience.

Your biglaw SA will reduce that grant aid by about 20k, so add that amount and a little extra interest to the cost difference. At that point I'd call it a coinflip, but I don't think I could turn down Harvard.

Voted Harvard. For what it's worth, I would definitely take UVA full ride over Harvard sticker, but that's an incredible aid grant, and since you are targeting a competitive market, the added security is worth the $$ here IMO .

Harvard at 30/30/30 would come out to $195,000 debt at graduation. UVA full-ride would come to $75,000.

However, you should note that any money that you make from an SA will come out of your grant money at Harvard, so that $195k is pretty firm. At UVA, if you get an SA and apply that $15k after taxes/COL to your school-year COL, you could bring it down to $60k. Also, UVA over-estimates true COL in C-ville ($21k vs $25k in Cambridge). Using a more reasonable COL ($16k?) could bring UVA down to $40k.

Additionally, paying down your Harvard debt will take several years. You would be able to pay down that debt at $55,000/year in four years. This would bring your total COA to around $220,000. The $40k/60k figure at UVA could be paid off in a year and so not take on significant additional debt.

TL;DR -- the cost differential between your two options is actually $160-180k for a biglaw grad, not the 90k you estimated.

IMO, this differential in costs is significant enough that it outweighs Harvard's placement advantage.

Any parental contribution/savings? I think if my parents were paying like 10k a year on top of the 30k, I'd take Harvard. As of right now, you're looking at like 200k of debt at graduation from Harvard vs 55k or so from UVA. I think I'd be able to stomach 150-160k at H but 200k would be too much for me.

I am facing a very similar (almost exact) decision and will probably start my own thread when I hear back about grant aid from HLS.

1. The cost of living at UVA will probably be higher than at Harvard if you live in Gropius. Rent for the cheapest room at Gropuis is $771 a month which is the same or less than housing at UVA. It is $686 to live in a dorm setting but it would be at main grounds and you would probably want to live closer to campus which means you would pay between $750-900 for an apartment on Arlington Blvd. Also, you will really, really want a car if you go to UVA which will also be an additional cost (especially if you do not have a car right now and need to buy one).

2. Your financial aid from HLS is really about $80,000 if you have a SA your 2L summer. HLS is already counting a $2,500 contribution from your earnings this summer so your total grant eligibility should be about $32,500. Next year you should be eligible for that full amount unless you get a 1L SA (in which case you come out ahead because of the extra $$). Your last year your aid will decrease with a 2L SA. Harvard has a breakdown on their financial aid website showing that if you earn $30,000 during the summer it will reduce your aid by about $15,000. This will mean your grant aid should look something like $30,000, $32,500, $17,500 for the three years respectively.

3. You might want to confirm that the Dillard scholarship covers tuition increases. Mine stated a maximum value of $164,400 which would mean that tuition can't average over $54,800/year and that seems unlikely given that tuition last year was $52,900.

4. If your COL is really about equal between UVA and HLS (see point #1) then you should be able to subtract the grant aid from HLS from the scholarship at UVA to figure out your cost difference (this assumes that tuition is roughly equal and in 2013-2014 tuition at UVA was $550 more than at HLS)

$164,400-$80,000 = $84,400

With interest you can bump that cost difference up to about $100,000. Although I am pretty debt averse, I think Harvard is likely worth $100,000 more than UVA and especially so with the added protection of LIPP. I would make sure you visit both schools and see which one you like more. It is a close call so personal preference for student body, faculty, and area are applicable considerations.

*

sasquatchsam wrote: 1. The cost of living at UVA will probably be higher than at Harvard if you live in Gropius. Rent for the cheapest room at Gropuis is $771 a month which is the same or less than housing at UVA. It is $686 to live in a dorm setting but it would be at main grounds and you would probably want to live closer to campus which means you would pay between $750-900 for an apartment on Arlington Blvd. Also, you will really, really want a car if you go to UVA which will also be an additional cost (especially if you do not have a car right now and need to buy one).

COL higher in C-ville? C'mon man. You're comparing a 100 sq ft dorm room (fully equipped with twin-size bed!) to a 1BR prime-location apartment. That is, the shittiest, least expensive option to the nicest, most expensive.

Looking at Craigslist, literally the first two entries in Charlottesville were for a (verrrry large) 2 BR downtown for $1050 ($525 each) and a 2BR (again, extremely spacious) less than 10 min from the law school for $850 ($425 each).

COL in Cambridge is very high. COL in rural Virginia is not. Difficult to take this seriously.

2. Your financial aid from HLS is really about $80,000 if you have a SA your 2L summer. HLS is already counting a $2,500 contribution from your earnings this summer so your total grant eligibility should be about $32,500. Next year you should be eligible for that full amount unless you get a 1L SA (in which case you come out ahead because of the extra $$). Your last year your aid will decrease with a 2L SA. Harvard has a breakdown on their financial aid website showing that if you earn $30,000 during the summer it will reduce your aid by about $15,000. This will mean your grant aid should look something like $30,000, $32,500, $17,500 for the three years respectively.

3. You might want to confirm that the Dillard scholarship covers tuition increases. Mine stated a maximum value of $164,400 which would mean that tuition can't average over $54,800/year and that seems unlikely given that tuition last year was $52,900.

I don't know if either of these are true, but for the sake of argument, let's say they are.

So with 30/32.5/32.5 at Harvard, and UVA capped at $164,400 (and using the school-provided COLs that show COL within only $4k of each other. ), that results in about $185,000 debt at graduation at Harvard and about $65,000 debt at graduation at UVA (assuming SA).

It's still going to take you 4 years at $55,000 a year to pay that off, or about $215k in total cost.*

That's still around a $150,000 difference assuming a ridiculously high COL in C-ville (and around a $170,000 difference using a low COL in C-ville).

The increased likelihood of a biglaw gig at Harvard might be worth that to you. YMMV. But you're certainly paying more than that 100k estimate for the privilege.


*I always round to the nearest 5k in all the approximations bc none of this is precise. The exact calculated total Harvard costs are $223k in the initial calc and $216k in this one.

HLS 3L. I'd vote for Harvard. I'd also vote for not living in Gropius, even though it is probably the cheapest option.

This should not even be a debate. Graduating from a prestigious ivy league school like Harvard, Yale or Columbia in the fields of business, medicine, and law will open up doors to you that you never even imagined...not to mention the legacy it creates for future generations of your family.

As a graduate of said schools in both business and in law I can attest the enormous value of the degree not just for job prospects upon graduation but also for the alumni network, access to funds, and the vast array of other opportunities that present themselves.

raininthedesert wrote:This should not even be a debate. Graduating from a prestigious ivy league school like Harvard, Yale or Columbia in the fields of business, medicine, and law will open up doors to you that you never even imagined...not to mention the legacy it creates for future generations of your family.

As a graduate of said schools in both business and in law I can attest the enormous value of the degree not just for job prospects upon graduation but also for the alumni network, access to funds, and the vast array of other opportunities that present themselves.

Wow. Where to begin...

yea i'm creating a legacy for future generations of my family, it's called an ever-increasing mountain of non-dischargeable debt.

raininthedesert wrote:This should not even be a debate. Graduating from a prestigious ivy league school like Harvard, Yale or Columbia in the fields of business, medicine, and law will open up doors to you that you never even imagined...not to mention the legacy it creates for future generations of your family.

As a graduate of said schools in both business and in law I can attest the enormous value of the degree not just for job prospects upon graduation but also for the alumni network, access to funds, and the vast array of other opportunities that present themselves.

Bahaha, stick around here a bit.

jbagelboy wrote:

raininthedesert wrote:This should not even be a debate. Graduating from a prestigious ivy league school like Harvard, Yale or Columbia in the fields of business, medicine, and law will open up doors to you that you never even imagined...not to mention the legacy it creates for future generations of your family.

As a graduate of said schools in both business and in law I can attest the enormous value of the degree not just for job prospects upon graduation but also for the alumni network, access to funds, and the vast array of other opportunities that present themselves.

Wow. Where to begin...

you've successfully insulted an associate in Big Law. Congratulations!

Clearly wrote:

raininthedesert wrote:This should not even be a debate. Graduating from a prestigious ivy league school like Harvard, Yale or Columbia in the fields of business, medicine, and law will open up doors to you that you never even imagined...not to mention the legacy it creates for future generations of your family.

As a graduate of said schools in both business and in law I can attest the enormous value of the degree not just for job prospects upon graduation but also for the alumni network, access to funds, and the vast array of other opportunities that present themselves.

Bahaha, stick around here a bit.

Hey man, he went to one of the T4, he'll have you know. So show some respect.

Thank you for all of the thoughtful responses so far! I'm surprised at how much I underestimated the COA difference between the two. Although, the poll still seems to highly favor H. I was leaning towards H to begin with given that I want to work in CA.

Sasquatchsam is correct; the letter from UVA states that the scholarship is capped at $164,400. I incorrectly assumed that this already accounted for tuition increases.

In response to the prestige comment above, I feel like cost vs. employment prospects is more important to me. Though, prestige aside, H does have better placement than UVA and may open more doors long-term. This is part of what makes this such a difficult decision. Is this analysis too short-sighted?

I feel like if we're looking at best-case scenarios right after graduation, UVA is the clear winner. Market rate is the same regardless of which school you graduate from, and your loans are paid off in 1/4 the time of the H grad sitting across the hall. However, I begin to lean H as I start to assume less optimistic scenarios (below-median grades, etc). At this point, H may still allow big law in NYC where that door may be closed at UVA.

If TLS has taught me one thing about law school grades, it is to expect median at whatever school you attend. I'm not certain whether UVA will open doors in CA like median like H could. In addition, landing CA big law seems to net more disposable income (according to a big law cost of living comparison with NYC chart I saw here on TLS). So, maybe this would allow me to pay down loans faster and live where I want to. Please let me know if you agree with this line of thinking.

TL;DR: TLS rocks, leaning towards H

Ummm...I was being sarcastic. Cost and employment statistics matter the most and the employment prospects, despite the added cost, from HLS are tough to walk away from. And yes, HLS is far more portable than UVA -- many on TLS would even consider UVA a superb regional school as opposed to a national one.

We all envy your position but that doesn't make the choice any easier.

Question: If it was Yale and not Harvard would it have been less of a debate for you?

patogordo wrote:yea i'm creating a legacy for future generations of my family, it's called an ever-increasing mountain of non-dischargeable debt.

Despite the fact that I was genuinely joking (especially about the family legacy aspects although the Kennedy and Bush families might take offense to that)...

I have, in fact, never actually met a Harvard Business School, Harvard Law School, or Harvard Medical School graduate with a "mountain of non-dischargeable debt" despite the pleasure of working with many -- probably the perks of said degree which may have included coming from or marrying into wealthy families. Subjective data suggests that a trophy spouse is at least one of those perquisites.

You should start a thread titled "Harvard Law Graduates with Regrettable Debt...Wish I Had Chosen UVA" to see what gets swept out from under the rug (if anything).

As echoed by another poster, UVA full vs. H at sticker would translate to UVA full winning. As it stands, H with 90k presents a reasonable amount of debt given the increase in job prospects, though not a substantial increase if you just want biglaw. However, I suspect that H is better long-term for federal government hiring.

If you weren't getting so much need-based aid at H, then definitely UVA. But as it stands, your biglaw time is going to decrease dramatically with that much money.

raininthedesert wrote:Ummm...I was being sarcastic. Cost and employment statistics matter the most and the employment prospects, despite the added cost, from HLS are tough to walk away from. And yes, HLS is far more portable than UVA -- many on TLS would even consider UVA a superb regional school as opposed to a national one.

We all envy your position but that doesn't make the choice any easier.

Question: If it was Yale and not Harvard would it have been less of a debate for you?

If it were Y/S, I think it would be less of a debate. I believe placement at both schools is a little better than H, so there is even more security. Although this may not be the popular opinion, I would actually prefer S over Y given my goals (CA big law). Although, the opportunity to take HBS courses while at HLS is a huge plus for corporate law. I literally give myself headaches over-thinking all this stuff.

Y made the decision for me (rejected). I have been under review at S since October.

The total yearly class size at Y and S are also much more favorable for job prospects than H's 500+.

Accidental double post

For CA dreaming...

If you choose Harvard: did you apply/accepted to Stanford? If you get in, expect similar financial aid grant and go there

If you choose UVA: Did you apply/accepted to berkeley? Any other huge scholarship offers from berkeley matching list? If so, apply for matching full scholarship, pray, and if Matched go there over UVA.

raininthedesert wrote:

patogordo wrote:yea i'm creating a legacy for future generations of my family, it's called an ever-increasing mountain of non-dischargeable debt.

Despite the fact that I was genuinely joking (especially about the family legacy aspects although the Kennedy and Bush families might take offense to that)...

I have, in fact, never actually met a Harvard Business School, Harvard Law School, or Harvard Medical School graduate with a "mountain of non-dischargeable debt" despite the pleasure of working with many -- probably the perks of said degree which may have included coming from or marrying into wealthy families. Subjective data suggests that a trophy spouse is at least one of those perquisites.

You should start a thread titled "Harvard Law Graduates with Regrettable Debt...Wish I Had Chosen UVA" to see what gets swept out from under the rug (if anything).

well if you'd like to meet one i'm available for coffee, but you'll have to pay