Cardozo vs. Wash U? Neither? Forum

[Unicorn1]

I have a 3.76 GPA and a 163 LSAT. Re-taking is not an option. The best ranked school I got into was WUSTL and they offered me 17k a year. Emory offered the same. I also got into GW and would prefer to go there over the prior 2, but they didn't offer me any money, though I'm guessing I could get them to make a similar offer.

I live in NY, and ideally would like to live/practice here. I was offered a full ride to Cardozo, contingent on remaining in the top 80% of the class. That is the best school I was offered a full scholarship to.

Unfortunately, regardless of where I go, I will have living expenses, including Cardozo, since I would move into the city and be forced to take out loans to pay for an apartment, so total COA would not be free.

My only real goal is not to be poor. Big Law is nice but outside of t14 it's a super long shot anywhere. I would like to be a lawyer, but don't want to be one so badly that I would risk being very poor.

I'm guessing Cardozo > WUSTL, but Not going to Law School > Cardozo ?

Feel free to be as brutally honest as possible.

[rickgrimes69]

Feel free to be as brutally honest as possible.

I like you OP

I'm guessing Cardozo > WUSTL, but Not going to Law School > Cardozo ?

Pretty much this

[Paul Campos]

The only one of these options that potentially makes sense is Cardozo. Key questions:

(1) Do you really want to practice law, and if so what kind and why? ("I want to be a lawyer" doesn't really mean anything except "I would like a purportedly prestigious white collar job").

(2) What is your opportunity cost? What are you doing now, and/or what would you do instead of going to law school? This is a critical question which for some reason isn't one of the things people are asked to list when making these kinds of posts.

(3) Is there any way you could cut down on living expenses by living with family? You say you're from NY but would move into the city. If you're living in the NYC area don't do this. Cardozo is in a crazy expensive area -- don't fund a three year adventure in Manhattan just because the federal government will loan you the money to do so.

(4) Absolutely do not do this unless you are certain you will have the strength of mind to drop out if you lose the scholarship.

(5) Why can't you re-take?

BTW Yeshiva University is having really major financial problems. I don't know how these will affect the law school but it's something potential Cardozo matrics should keep in mind.

[northwood]

Does your Cardozo scholarship include living expenses? If not, you should guestimate what they will be for 3 years 11 weeks ( need to figure in bar prep) and add that to your calculations.

[burtmacklin]

No fordham? You probably wouldn't get a full scholarship there, maybe not even a scholarship most would consider "worth it" but in terms of job prospects in ny it is at least a bit more palatable

[timbs4339]

I think you need to do more learning about What Being a Lawyer Is Really Like outside of the prestigious jobs that you won't get out of Dozo or even WUSTL. Three years is a long time that you could be developing experience in another job.

Also read up more on the absolutely staggering rates of depression, anxiety, and substance abuse in the profession. These aren't "preexisting conditions" - something about law school and being a lawyer either brings it out or creates it.

[d cooper]

I know you won't retake, but you should know you're a handful of points away from money at Cornell.

[Unicorn1]

The only one of these options that potentially makes sense is Cardozo. Key questions:

(1) Do you really want to practice law, and if so what kind and why? ("I want to be a lawyer" doesn't really mean anything except "I would like a purportedly prestigious white collar job").

I do want to practice law. One thing to mention that is not negligible is that I have many lawyers in the family, like double digits. Unfortunately, it won't assure me of anything in terms of nepotism, though I might have some more connections/opportunities than others. But I do know what being a lawyer is like and realize the potential pitfalls.

(2) What is your opportunity cost? What are you doing now, and/or what would you do instead of going to law school? This is a critical question which for some reason isn't one of the things people are asked to list when making these kinds of posts.

I am a former professional poker player who did well financially but hated my life and then went back to school. I got my undergrad degree recently despite being 25. Technically right now, other than continuing to play poker a few times a week, I am doing nothing. No one will hire me for a job that would be worth doing with the possibility I leave for law school in 6 months.

If I don't go to law school, I could go back to playing poker, though I'll consider myself a colossal failure if that happens. I could look for the best career track job I could find, but I'm guessing I wouldn't have much success with no graduate degree and a no name college on my resume (though my grades were excellent--my 3.76 GPA is actually a combination of a 2.5 my very first semester 7 years ago, and a 4.0 every semester thereafter when I restarted 4 years later at a different school). I could also entertain other grad school options, though from everything I read, those don't seem to be any more financially promising as a law degree right now.

(3) Is there any way you could cut down on living expenses by living with family? You say you're from NY but would move into the city. If you're living in the NYC area don't do this. Cardozo is in a crazy expensive area -- don't fund a three year adventure in Manhattan just because the federal government will loan you the money to do so.

I live in Staten Island right now on my parent's side apartment, but living here long-term is not an option for them or for me. I could theoretically find the cheapest place to live and still be somewhere near the school, though it won't be cheap regardless because anywhere nice in the metro area is pricy. Besides, I would like to be not too far from the campus if I'll be going there everyday. FWIW, I have some money saved up, so that could help a bit with living expenses.

(4) Absolutely do not do this unless you are certain you will have the strength of mind to drop out if you lose the scholarship.

Definitely agree with this. But the way I figure it, if I can't remain in the top 80% of the class at Cardozo, then I have no business being a lawyer and wouldn't be able to find a job anyway.

(5) Why can't you re-take?

None left

[Unicorn1]

Does your Cardozo scholarship include living expenses? If not, you should guestimate what they will be for 3 years 11 weeks ( need to figure in bar prep) and add that to your calculations.

No it doesn't. Is that something that can be negotiated for? The reality is I was surprised to get even a full tuition scholarship from them. I figured I'd get in and maybe get a small offer, but I don't crush their medians or anything. I actually got waitlisted at Buffalo which was supposed to be a safety school, so who knows.

No way to really guestimate accurately. I've lived on my own since I was 18 and the only thing I have learned is that when creating a budget, the only thing you can do is set a baseline. Rent might be 1000-1500 a month. Throw a few hundo on top of that for utilities and such. Multiply by 12. But then there's food, clothes, nights out, and all sorts of random expenditures that adults have to make that can't be budgeted for, like when a friend gets married and it costs you $500.

[Unicorn1]

No fordham? You probably wouldn't get a full scholarship there, maybe not even a scholarship most would consider "worth it" but in terms of job prospects in ny it is at least a bit more palatable

I was waitlisted at Fordham, which means that even if I get in eventually, they wouldn't offer me any money.

[Mack.Hambleton]

Wait two years, get some work experience and avoid taking up huge debt, and then retake and reapply if you're still interested in law school. Don't be so quick to jump into big debt, lose three years of your life, and be stuck with shitty job prospects.

[Unicorn1]

Wait two years, get some work experience and avoid taking up huge debt, and then retake and reapply if you're still interested in law school. Don't be so quick to jump into big debt, lose three years of your life, and be stuck with shitty job prospects.

I'm definitely not waiting 2 years to first start law school. I am not that young as it is now, and if I start law school in August I'll be in my 30s by the time I'm ready to find a job. I've had work experience, I don't need any more in the interim. If I go to law school, I'm "losing" three years of my life regardless, and the sooner the better as far as I'm concerned.

And before you ask, yes, 2 years of my life is worth the hundreds of thousands that I COULD possibly make extra one day if I'm able to up my score, which is a big if.

[Crowing]

I would probably look at other career options and if a couple of years down the road you still are interested in law school, well you can retake then and cross that bridge when you get there

If you really must go there are probably worse options than going to Cardozo for a year with tuition covered and dropping out if your grades aren't good

[cinephile]

If you really must go there are probably worse options than going to Cardozo for a year with tuition covered and dropping out if your grades aren't good

I agree with this completely. So long as you're okay with foregoing the opportunity to enter biglaw, this isn't a bad deal. Debt for COL isn't cheap, but you're in a better position than most. And you can always drop out after the first year.

[AD1818]

nvm

[AD1818]

.

[Unicorn1]

If you really must go there are probably worse options than going to Cardozo for a year with tuition covered and dropping out if your grades aren't good

I agree with this completely. So long as you're okay with foregoing the opportunity to enter biglaw, this isn't a bad deal. Debt for COL isn't cheap, but you're in a better position than most. And you can always drop out after the first year.

Wouldn't I still have a shot a Big Law if I finish in the top 5-10% of my class? I understand that the odds are against me doing that, but someone has to be at the top. In general, I'd rather take the lower risk route that still has a small chance of leading to something great than the high risk route which could be disastrous.

I'm thinking the worst case scenario if I go to Cardozo would be graduating with 50k or so in debt and only being able to find a 40k a year job. That would surely suck but it wouldn't be a suicidal amount of debt or scenario.

Plus I have a banked talent that is poker that is not going anywhere, and it is a big xfactor in this discussion as if I can find a way to play any amount over the next x amt. of years it could mitigate expenses.

Plus possible nepotism

[iskim88]

If you really must go there are probably worse options than going to Cardozo for a year with tuition covered and dropping out if your grades aren't good

I agree with this completely. So long as you're okay with foregoing the opportunity to enter biglaw, this isn't a bad deal. Debt for COL isn't cheap, but you're in a better position than most. And you can always drop out after the first year.

ㅁ
Wouldn't I still have a shot a Big Law if I finish in the top 5-10% of my class? I understand that the odds are against me doing that, but someone has to be at the top. In general, I'd rather take the lower risk route that still has a small chance of leading to something great than the high risk route which could be disastrous.

I'm thinking the worst case scenario if I go to Cardozo would be graduating with 50k or so in debt and only being able to find a 40k a year job. That would surely suck but it wouldn't be a suicidal amount of debt or scenario.

Plus I have a banked talent that is poker that is not going anywhere, and it is a big xfactor in this discussion as if I can find a way to play any amount over the next x amt. of years it could mitigate expenses.

Plus possible nepotism

A friend of my mine who graduated from Cardozo in the top 5% currently working in a govt position in DC told me not to go if my goal is Biglaw. She said as far as her class goes, none of the ppl she knew got a Biglaw job as an associate. She knows a couple working as "staff attorneys" at Biglaw who get half what the associates get and cannot become a partner.

[lakers180]

retaking is always an option

[jbagelboy]

I agree with this completely. So long as you're okay with foregoing the opportunity to enter biglaw, this isn't a bad deal. Debt for COL isn't cheap, but you're in a better position than most. And you can always drop out after the first year.

ㅁ
Wouldn't I still have a shot a Big Law if I finish in the top 5-10% of my class? I understand that the odds are against me doing that, but someone has to be at the top. In general, I'd rather take the lower risk route that still has a small chance of leading to something great than the high risk route which could be disastrous.

I'm thinking the worst case scenario if I go to Cardozo would be graduating with 50k or so in debt and only being able to find a 40k a year job. That would surely suck but it wouldn't be a suicidal amount of debt or scenario.

Plus I have a banked talent that is poker that is not going anywhere, and it is a big xfactor in this discussion as if I can find a way to play any amount over the next x amt. of years it could mitigate expenses.

Plus possible nepotism

A friend of my mine who graduated from Cardozo in the top 5% currently working in a govt position in DC told me not to go if my goal is Biglaw. She said as far as her class goes, none of the ppl she knew got a Biglaw job as an associate. She knows a couple working as "staff attorneys" at Biglaw who get half what the associates get and cannot become a partner.

This is really scary, because those staff attorney positions probably aren't distinguished from associateships in our data. So Cardozo's "large firm" score doesn't even consist of biglaw jobs - How fucked up.

[iskim88]

I agree with this completely. So long as you're okay with foregoing the opportunity to enter biglaw, this isn't a bad deal. Debt for COL isn't cheap, but you're in a better position than most. And you can always drop out after the first year.

ㅁ
Wouldn't I still have a shot a Big Law if I finish in the top 5-10% of my class? I understand that the odds are against me doing that, but someone has to be at the top. In general, I'd rather take the lower risk route that still has a small chance of leading to something great than the high risk route which could be disastrous.

I'm thinking the worst case scenario if I go to Cardozo would be graduating with 50k or so in debt and only being able to find a 40k a year job. That would surely suck but it wouldn't be a suicidal amount of debt or scenario.

Plus I have a banked talent that is poker that is not going anywhere, and it is a big xfactor in this discussion as if I can find a way to play any amount over the next x amt. of years it could mitigate expenses.

Plus possible nepotism

A friend of my mine who graduated from Cardozo in the top 5% currently working in a govt position in DC told me not to go if my goal is Biglaw. She said as far as her class goes, none of the ppl she knew got a Biglaw job as an associate. She knows a couple working as "staff attorneys" at Biglaw who get half what the associates get and cannot become a partner.

This is really scary, because those staff attorney positions probably aren't distinguished from associateships in our data. So Cardozo's "large firm" score doesn't even consist of biglaw jobs - How fucked up.

You are probably right about that point... it indeed is scary.

[Unicorn1]

I want to bump this because I'm still super confused about something.

Everyone says retake retake retake, try to get top14. Well I want to stay in NY. Even if I waited the requisite time and retook and got my 163 to like a 170, and got into NYU or Columbia, it would likely be without scholarship. I'd then be FORCED to do big law since I'd have 300k in debt.

That doesn't seem desirable either. I don't understand why that's so much better than having minimal debt, even if it means much more limited job prospects.

[Winston1984]

I want to bump this because I'm still super confused about something.

Everyone says retake retake retake, try to get top14. Well I want to stay in NY. Even if I waited the requisite time and retook and got my 163 to like a 170, and got into NYU or Columbia, it would likely be without scholarship. I'd then be FORCED to do big law since I'd have 300k in debt.

That doesn't seem desirable either. I don't understand why that's so much better than having minimal debt, even if it means much more limited job prospects.

Don't go to NYU/Columbia. Take a lower T-14 and just go back to NY after you graduate. Then you have minimal debt and much better employment prospects.

[anyriotgirl]

I want to bump this because I'm still super confused about something.

Everyone says retake retake retake, try to get top14. Well I want to stay in NY. Even if I waited the requisite time and retook and got my 163 to like a 170, and got into NYU or Columbia, it would likely be without scholarship. I'd then be FORCED to do big law since I'd have 300k in debt.

That doesn't seem desirable either. I don't understand why that's so much better than having minimal debt, even if it means much more limited job prospects.

Don't go to NYU/Columbia. Take a lower T-14 and just go back to NY after you graduate. Then you have minimal debt and much better employment prospects.

This. The bolierplate TLS advice is either T-14 or strong regional with $$$. NYC is the exception to that, because it doesn't really have a strong regional; there's too much competition from the national schools. If you wanted to get a little loose with definitions, Cornell is sort of NYC's strong regional. With your GPA you only need a couple more LSAT points to put Cornell within the realm of possibility.

[Tiago Splitter]

I want to bump this because I'm still super confused about something.

Everyone says retake retake retake, try to get top14. Well I want to stay in NY. Even if I waited the requisite time and retook and got my 163 to like a 170, and got into NYU or Columbia, it would likely be without scholarship. I'd then be FORCED to do big law since I'd have 300k in debt.

That doesn't seem desirable either. I don't understand why that's so much better than having minimal debt, even if it means much more limited job prospects.

First of all, you mentioned in the OP that you'd prefer to go to GW out of your current options, so this geographical limitation seems to be fairly recent. Second, there is Fordham, which tends to be pretty stingy but would likely give a full ride or something close to a person with a 3.7/170. Don't count yourself out for good money this year either; especially with a June retake money off the waitlist happens a lot. Third, people with your GPA and a stronger LSAT score get big money all the time from Columbia and NYU. Not to mention that a goal of "doesn't want to be poor" pretty much screams "go T14" because it nearly assures you'll have a decent career as a lawyer. The other schools, while "free" if you ignore COL expenses, could very easily put you right back where you're at in three years.

You have to decide how important staying in NYC is. If you absolutely must, then retake in June and see if better options come about in NYC. If you can't improve, Cardozo for free isn't a terrible idea but I'd drop out after a semester or a year if real job prospects haven't materialized. If you are willing to be more flexible geographically, a retake could get you a substantial discount within the T14, and all of those schools place well into New York firms. And for what it's worth, I was 27 when I decided to sit out a year and retake, so I can assure you both that it can be done and that it can drastically improve your career trajectory.