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Hi TLSers! I need some advice...

I am currently considering UVA and Harvard as my top two options. (I am still waiting for a scholarship offer from NYU, but at this point I don't think it's going to compete with the level of opportunity at Harvard or the financial security of UVA.)

Harvard COA is the standard ~$250k -- I will not receive any financial aid and I am financially independent from my parents (even if HLS doesn't see it that way!). This would all come out of loans under my name.

I have been offered a full tuition scholarship to UVA as a Dillard scholar. This means my only expense would be the cost of living in Charlottesville, so something like $30-35k.

I'm from Phoenix, Arizona, so either Cambridge or Charlottesville would be a big adjustment for me. I think I'd prefer Cambridge because of its proximity to Boston -- Charlottesville seems so small!! -- but I know I would learn to love either. I have no family/friends/connections in either area. I have never been to either city (or state, for that matter). I am visiting both in April, but my decision will have to be made a week later so I want to have a good idea where I stand before that point.

I want to work in either DC or NYC doing public interest/nonprofit/public policy work on a national/international scale.

LSAT: 171 (1 take)
GPA: 4.08

I know the general TLS wisdom is to take Harvard if you can get it, but I'm terrified to take on that level of debt when I have no interest in big law. Yes, I have researched HLS's LIPP and it is very generous and flexible... but that doesn't make $250,000 of debt any less nauseating! UVA's Dillard scholarship program offers special mentorship and could help me differentiate myself to achieve the best opportunities available for a UVA grad. I'm just not convinced that it would launch me to quite the same level of opportunity as HLS would...

I feel like I change my mind between HLS and UVA just about every day! I would really appreciate any thoughtful guidance and wisdom!

In your situation, Virginia seems to be the better option.

When it comes time to start repaying student loans, you could be facing over $300,000 in loans & interest if you pay sticker price for Harvard.

I do think that NYU will offer a scholarship to you. If NYU offers close to a full tuition scholarship, then it becomes a question of location preference, in my opinion.

I don't see NYU offering a full scholly for a 171 @CanadianWolf

But anyway OP, Harvard at sticker does not seem like the best choice here. For NYC or DC PI, I'd take either UVA at full scholly or NYU/Penn etc at maybe half scholly (based on what you get and what you can negotiate). So basically you'll have to weigh how much debt you want to take on versus the increased prospects from lower T14 to CCN or Penn, but either way Harvard at sticker doesn't seem like your best option, and I think UVA's scholly will probably remain the best offer you get.

UVA.

I really don't think the advantages you could get with a Harvard degree would justify $300,000 of debt. UVA is an excellent school, and unless you get a big scholarship to NYU, you shouldn't pass up the opportunity to go there for free.

lzack wrote:I know the general TLS wisdom is to take Harvard if you can get it, but I'm terrified to take on that level of debt when I have no interest in big law. Yes, I have researched HLS's LIPP and it is very generous and flexible... but that doesn't make $250,000 of debt any less nauseating! UVA's Dillard scholarship program offers special mentorship and could help me differentiate myself to achieve the best opportunities available for a UVA grad. I'm just not convinced that it would launch me to quite the same level of opportunity as HLS would...

As re: your last sentence: you're right, it won't. And LIPP does in fact make the debt less nauseating. It's not particularly difficult to get PI straight from HLS. This isn't Ruby/Hamilton v. HLS.

Though international goals would point to H, I still think think that UVA wins easily. It opens up almost all of the same doors, since for great PI work you have to make your own path anyway. UVa is also very strong in both DC and NY, tons of DC firms and government agencies are full of both H/Y grads and UVa grads. While H is better all thing being even, I just can't see 300k of difference between the two schools (unless you or your family are independently wealthy; thats when people say go to H over Hamilton or something like that).

Consider this, all of the top students at V could transfer to H after their 1L year, even among those paying sticker, still very few even consider it (contrast that to somewhere outside the t14 where top kids do try to transfer up). The reason is that V (like a few other tops schools) offers similar quality of opportunities as H would (almost all the top students at V end up with great clerkships if they want them). Now it is true that these students have done very well as a 1L and you do not know if you will, but, if they do not leave when paying sticker and the H argument is primarily that the opportunities are that much better, then it seems that this is at least an argument to say that V can open up the same doors. So, if the opportunities can be similar out of both schools, does that mean that you are paying 300k for nothing more than a slightly larger margin for error in your grades? Seems like a lot just for better odds at the same results.

Basically, full ride at a T10 is about as good of a result as is possible. I mean we are not talking about wustl or ucla or somewhere else where even a full ride is turn-down-able

I would not take on 250K of debt for a degree.... with only 30-35K in loans, the incurred debt is minimal enough where you have other options available to you should your goals change.

UVA and for me, its not close

james.bungles wrote: For NYC or DC PI, I'd take either UVA at full scholly or NYU/Penn etc at maybe half scholly (based on what you get and what you can negotiate). So basically you'll have to weigh how much debt you want to take on versus the increased prospects from lower T14 to CCN or Penn, but either way Harvard at sticker doesn't seem like your best option, and I think UVA's scholly will probably remain the best offer you get.

lol at P or N being in a level above V for DC or even PI (hint: P is worse for DC or PI; its only better for NY big law)

It would be crazy to turn down Dillard for P or N half rides (except maybe N if NY PI only)

Keep in mind that the Harvard mystique definitely strengthens one’s cred as they proceed with their law career. In short, there are tangible down-the-road advantages (including partnership advancement).

Go to UVA. HLS LIPP will make PI work possible, but it won't be easy. It will essentially mean very little savings for 10 years (if you're on a typical NGO salary), or if you're slightly higher, the difference between being able to afford trips back to AZ to see your family more than once or twice a year, buying a car, or living on your own for the first 4-5 years.

(graduates 1000 attorneys every year)

(has mystic)

twenty 8 wrote:Keep in mind that the Harvard mystique definitely strengthens one’s cred as they proceed with their law career. In short, there are tangible down-the-road advantages (including partnership advancement).

Leiter had a survey a few years back that seemed to debunk the notion that as a percentage of their graduating class who entered large firms, Harvard had any distinct advantage over the T14 more generally as far as reaching partner track is concerned. The bolded is a bogus claim.

However, the advantage Harvard would confer is if OP at some point down the road sought to teach or go into federal government service (of course, without a Yale degree the academia objective is still farfetched).

jbagelboy wrote:

twenty 8 wrote:Keep in mind that the Harvard mystique definitely strengthens one’s cred as they proceed with their law career. In short, there are tangible down-the-road advantages (including partnership advancement).

Leiter had a survey a few years back that seemed to debunk the notion that as a percentage of their graduating class who entered large firms, Harvard had any distinct advantage over the T14 more generally as far as reaching partner track is concerned. The bolded is a bogus claim.

However, the advantage Harvard would confer is if OP at some point down the road sought to teach or go into federal government service (of course, without a Yale degree the academia objective is still farfetched).

Academia isn't something you just do after a biglawl career. That door is closed.

And I've never seen any significant proof Harvard gives a HUGE government boost.

Desert Fox wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:

twenty 8 wrote:Keep in mind that the Harvard mystique definitely strengthens one’s cred as they proceed with their law career. In short, there are tangible down-the-road advantages (including partnership advancement).

Leiter had a survey a few years back that seemed to debunk the notion that as a percentage of their graduating class who entered large firms, Harvard had any distinct advantage over the T14 more generally as far as reaching partner track is concerned. The bolded is a bogus claim.

However, the advantage Harvard would confer is if OP at some point down the road sought to teach or go into federal government service (of course, without a Yale degree the academia objective is still farfetched).

Academia isn't something you just do after a biglawl career. That door is closed.

And I've never seen any significant proof Harvard gives a HUGE government boost.

Maybe it's a boomer thing, but several of my professors worked at firms (mostly Paul Weiss) before returning to the academy. I've met attorneys at firm receptions (specifically, Cleary Gottleib and Paul Weiss - maybe these firms foster more academia?) who teach. As I granted, and as they told me, Yale grads are "more prone" to teaching - whether that's personal preference or the prestige-obsession of elite law schools, I can't tell you.

ETA: again, I voted UVA. Not jumping on the debt train here at all. just clarifying shit.

If you go to Harvard, and incur 250K in debt, you will have to work in a big law setting for a long time to satisfy your loans. Biglaw has a high turnover rate- and you may be out by year 5 ( if not sooner). Some of this is self-choice, some are shown the door involuntarily.

If you go to UVA, it will be a lot easier to satisfy your loans- and do so sooner.

While H may have a boost down the road, in a professional manner- having less debt provides a tremendous amount of personal freedom to move and switch gears to get you down the road of life. Not to mention, its one less thing you have to worry about/ lose sleep over.

northwood wrote:If you go to Harvard, and incur 250K in debt, you will have to work in a big law setting for a long time to satisfy your loans. Biglaw has a high turnover rate- and you may be out by year 5 ( if not sooner). Some of this is self-choice, some are shown the door involuntarily.

Not true, LIPP protects against this, etc.

If you're dedicated to PI and not just wavering (and dedicated is what OP sounds like), get involved with a few groups at HLS, and don't have horrible grades, you'll be fine getting a good PI job.

UVA and not close. The best LRAP/LIPP/etc is no debt in the first place. You will be free to take any job that interests you. UVA will open plenty of doors for you in DC. Harvard may provided a slight boost in security, but that security isn't worth $300k.

If NYU came to you with tons of $$ then that would change things slightly, but I don't think they'll give you enough to make it worthwhile.