Top Law Schools

Not a basketball question, but here's my pleasant problem: I have been offered a full 3 year ride at Carolina and admission but no financial aid at Duke. Is the Duke national rep really so much better than Carolina's as to compel me to attend there or is this the no brainer I think it is, given the $$ issue? I am interested in IP law, probably prefer to practice outside of NC. Thanks.

..

Yes, in both law and basketball.

(Also, +1 to the above. Attending Duke at full freight seems like... a lot. But, cost aside, it's certainly a better choice for maximizing your prospects outside of NC.)

If you wanted to stay in NC and weren't married to the idea of Big Law, I'd say UNC for sure. Otherwise...probably not.

If you want to practice outside of NC the choice should be Duke vs. somewhere else. What are your other options?

Between your current two options, UNC is the safer choice. Try to negotiate for some grant money from Duke.

UNC 74, Dook 68

Without NC ties, I would not go to Carolina. However, Duke at full price seems a bit steep...

Thanks, but to focus more directly, I think I know that only 10-15% of Carolina grads go on to work in DC or NY and that most Dookies do leave NC (and they're are mostly Yankees anyway), but it seems that the choice is about post-law school income. Is it likely that I will be able to recover the $225k or so that Duke would cost me within a reasonable period of time? Job prospects for top of the class at UNC working in DC vs. middle of the class at Duke?

Other admissions so far: U Md and GW. Waiting to hear from Georgetown and UVa chances are marginal as was Duke).

Living in Chapel Hill or Durham for 3 years would be great. I'm a southerner by birth. Just not sure I want to stay there forever.

Student at UNC here. Duke is definitely the safer bet, but if you do really well at UNC you can go anywhere. Similarly, if you do average/below average at Duke you can find ourself without a decent offer. Most of the law review at UNC had good Biglaw looks, and I know a good number are going to V15/V10 firms. So, Duke isn't a magic bullet, though it's safe. If you go to UNC and do really well you're getting looks at top firms just like you would at Duke, but with 0 debt. $160,000/yr with no debt is a good situation to be in after law school.

ncstudent123 wrote:Student at UNC here. Duke is definitely the safer bet, but if you do really well at UNC you can go anywhere. Similarly, if you do average/below average at Duke you can find ourself without a decent offer. Most of the law review at UNC had good Biglaw looks, and I know a good number are going to V15/V10 firms. So, Duke isn't a magic bullet, though it's safe. If you go to UNC and do really well you're getting looks at top firms just like you would at Duke, but with 0 debt. $160,000/yr with no debt is a good situation to be in after law school.

I don't want to threadjack, but how do things look from your perspective for average joes from UNC? I know Big Law is probably out, but are people generally doing alright with things like small/midlaw, state and local government, etc?

For the class of 2012 15% of Duke graduates did not have a full time legal job after graduation. 64% had biglaw or a federal clerkship. There is a very real chance a median student at duke will end up making 50k. And as hard as it may be to believe you could finish median. You could also be in that 15% unemployed group. Everyone at Duke is smart and works hard, but a third of the class has to lose and 15% has to lose big. If proposed changes to IBR/PAYE/PSLF apply to your class then a third lose big.

At a non-discounted cost of over 250k, I wouldn't even think about Duke.

Nomo wrote:For the class of 2012 15% of Duke graduates did not have a full time legal job after graduation. 64% had biglaw or a federal clerkship. There is a very real chance a median student at duke will end up making 50k. And as hard as it may be to believe you could finish median. You could also be in that 15% unemployed group. Everyone at Duke is smart and works hard, but a third of the class has to lose and 15% has to lose big. If proposed changes to IBR/PAYE/PSLF apply to your class then a third lose big.

At a non-discounted cost of over 250k, I wouldn't even think about Duke.

But under this reasoning even a 75k scholarship doesn't really do anything.

Nomo wrote:For the class of 2012 15% of Duke graduates did not have a full time legal job after graduation. 64% had biglaw or a federal clerkship. There is a very real chance a median student at duke will end up making 50k. And as hard as it may be to believe you could finish median. You could also be in that 15% unemployed group. Everyone at Duke is smart and works hard, but a third of the class has to lose and 15% has to lose big. If proposed changes to IBR/PAYE/PSLF apply to your class then a third lose big.

At a non-discounted cost of over 250k, I wouldn't even think about Duke.

Where did you get that 15% unemployed stat from? LST shows 3 graduates unemployed/seeking a job and 1 person unknown (I didn't count the 2 seeking a graduate degree or the 2 not seeking a job as I don't think they are actually unemployed). Under 2% unemployment. I agree with the "very real chance a median student will end up making 50k" but I think the 15% unemployment is misleading.

So I don't think either option is particularly desirable. UNC is a poor choice for biglaw/working outside of NC, and Duke is a poor choice for staying out of debtor's prison. As it stands now, you're basically looking at $252k (assuming full cost of attendance) for a 42.9% better shot at a desirable employment outcome. And that's a very steep tradeoff, in both directions.

Ideally, you'd be able to get some money out of Duke, because $250k is an enormous amount of money. Otherwise, UNC is less risky (at least in terms of finances), but understand that you're probably not going to satisfy your career goals out of UNC. So, yeah, again, neither option looks great at this point.

Chekhov'sGun wrote:

Nomo wrote:For the class of 2012 15% of Duke graduates did not have a full time legal job after graduation. 64% had biglaw or a federal clerkship. There is a very real chance a median student at duke will end up making 50k. And as hard as it may be to believe you could finish median. You could also be in that 15% unemployed group. Everyone at Duke is smart and works hard, but a third of the class has to lose and 15% has to lose big. If proposed changes to IBR/PAYE/PSLF apply to your class then a third lose big.

At a non-discounted cost of over 250k, I wouldn't even think about Duke.

Where did you get that 15% unemployed stat from? LST shows 3 graduates unemployed/seeking a job and 1 person unknown (I didn't count the 2 seeking a graduate degree or the 2 not seeking a job as I don't think they are actually unemployed). Under 2% unemployment. I agree with the "very real chance a median student will end up making 50k" but I think the 15% unemployment is misleading.

I was writing fast and made a misstatement. I apologize. What I meant to do is add up the underemployed, those employed by the school, the unemployed, the extra degree seekers, and the not seeking. Obviously most of that isn't unemployment. But, I do think the extra degree seekers are normally doing so because they were concerned about job prospects (hello Tax LLM!). And I have serious doubts about the "not looking" crowd.

But, even if you think underemployment is only the 11.6% LST claims that's a lot of smart hardworking kids who lost out big time. I don't think it changes the analysis.

Tiago Splitter wrote:

Nomo wrote:For the class of 2012 15% of Duke graduates did not have a full time legal job after graduation. 64% had biglaw or a federal clerkship. There is a very real chance a median student at duke will end up making 50k. And as hard as it may be to believe you could finish median. You could also be in that 15% unemployed group. Everyone at Duke is smart and works hard, but a third of the class has to lose and 15% has to lose big. If proposed changes to IBR/PAYE/PSLF apply to your class then a third lose big.

At a non-discounted cost of over 250k, I wouldn't even think about Duke.

But under this reasoning even a 75k scholarship doesn't really do anything.

True. I think 90k might move the needle if you're really confident you want to be a lawyer. That's getting down to a debt burden that small firm attorney or state government attorney can pay off over 15 years. That 7.9% grad plus interest is no joke. Every dollar saved on the front end really matters.

Nomo wrote:

Chekhov'sGun wrote:

Nomo wrote:For the class of 2012 15% of Duke graduates did not have a full time legal job after graduation. 64% had biglaw or a federal clerkship. There is a very real chance a median student at duke will end up making 50k. And as hard as it may be to believe you could finish median. You could also be in that 15% unemployed group. Everyone at Duke is smart and works hard, but a third of the class has to lose and 15% has to lose big. If proposed changes to IBR/PAYE/PSLF apply to your class then a third lose big.

At a non-discounted cost of over 250k, I wouldn't even think about Duke.

Where did you get that 15% unemployed stat from? LST shows 3 graduates unemployed/seeking a job and 1 person unknown (I didn't count the 2 seeking a graduate degree or the 2 not seeking a job as I don't think they are actually unemployed). Under 2% unemployment. I agree with the "very real chance a median student will end up making 50k" but I think the 15% unemployment is misleading.

I was writing fast and made a misstatement. I apologize. What I meant to do is add up the underemployed, those employed by the school, the unemployed, the extra degree seekers, and the not seeking. Obviously most of that isn't unemployment. But, I do think the extra degree seekers are normally doing so because they were concerned about job prospects (hello Tax LLM!). And I have serious doubts about the "not looking" crowd.

But, even if you think underemployment is only the 11.6% LST claims that's a lot of smart hardworking kids who lost out big time. I don't think it changes the analysis.

Totally agree that Duke at sticker is risky. Just wanted to point out the numbers on losing out and being unemployed vs being underemployed. I don't know what all accounts for the "not looking" group either but one I example I know of is a T14 grad who had no debt, got married and had a child right out of school. Never took/looked for a job and classifies themselves as "not looking".

I'm currently a 2L at Duke who is going to a V10 firm, but I had V5 offers. I have to say, I don't know a single person in my class who didn't get a job they wanted. Granted, I never see the public interest people anymore, but everyone who is pursuing firm work got it. I don't know anyone getting under the top pay for their city/state ($110k for those who stayed in NC).

Edit: I also know a solid contingent going to Texas for the low cost of living. 160k with cheap housing and no state income tax adds up pretty quick.

Duke at sticker is beyond insane. Forget law school, check yourself into a mental institution.

Duke is cr; they have Belle Knox

Dr. Dre wrote:Duke is cr; they have Belle Knox

A solid 6.5.

sach1282 wrote:I'm currently a 2L at Duke who is going to a V10 firm, but I had V5 offers. I have to say, I don't know a single person in my class who didn't get a job they wanted. Granted, I never see the public interest people anymore, but everyone who is pursuing firm work got it.

People are always saying stuff like this about lots of different schools, but the numbers just don't add up. Maybe 2/3 of people wanting firm work got it and the other 1/3 are not talking about it because they don't want to rain on everyone's parade - or maybe they've shifted their goals after striking out at OCI.

Negotiate with Duke

Did you apply to other schools? Full ride from UNC and acceptance at Duke probably means you got $$ from other schools as well

ndirish2010 wrote:Without NC ties, I would not go to Carolina. However, Duke at full price seems a bit steep...

Definitely this. Definitely definitely this.

Also, Duke isn't going to negotiate with your UNC scholarship. If you have a T14 scholly mention that to them. Otherwise, they aren't going to do much for you.

What are your numbers?