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m079 wrote:It is very short-sighted to perceive that the majority of GULC students think the way you do. GULC is by far the biggest "feeder" school for government and PI. That's one substantial reason why people choose to go to law school in DC. As a GULC student who works in government, I know more people interested in PI/gov than big law. Gov/PI is not by default easier than big law. Like you said, all you need for big law is grades. But for JAG, DOJ, and other positions to which HUNDREDS of students across the country apply but only a few get into, good grades is never enough. You have to be able to offer something else. Especially now that big law jobs are becoming more scarce, the competition is especially fierce and for a good PI/gov job, you're going to have to truly gun for it and demonstrate genuine interest. Also, as a fed, I know many fellow feds who come from big law. If you think all law students surely must want to go into big law, you clearly have not done the research to understand the differences between big law and gov't. Wise people who have done the research understand the merits of each and pick the one they know will make them the most successful and satisfied lawyer they can be.

Princetonlaw68 wrote:

m079 wrote:It is very short-sighted to perceive that the majority of GULC students think the way you do. GULC is by far the biggest "feeder" school for government and PI. That's one substantial reason why people choose to go to law school in DC. As a GULC student who works in government, I know more people interested in PI/gov than big law. Gov/PI is not by default easier than big law. Like you said, all you need for big law is grades. But for JAG, DOJ, and other positions to which HUNDREDS of students across the country apply but only a few get into, good grades is never enough. You have to be able to offer something else. Especially now that big law jobs are becoming more scarce, the competition is especially fierce and for a good PI/gov job, you're going to have to truly gun for it and demonstrate genuine interest. Also, as a fed, I know many fellow feds who come from big law. If you think all law students surely must want to go into big law, you clearly have not done the research to understand the differences between big law and gov't. Wise people who have done the research understand the merits of each and pick the one they know will make them the most successful and satisfied lawyer they can be.

I understand what you're saying and I'm not saying no one wants PI more than big law. Let's say someone does want PI more, then during law school decides maybe I might as well just try for big law, because I can get into PI after anyway." Ok that's fine, but that person is more competition for big law. My post is not meant to insult anyone who wants to do PI or Gov. All I'm trying to do is see if a more accurate picture of the competition for big law can be created. Just because someone might go into school wanting PI and ends up doing PI doesn't mean that person can't also be competition for big law. Just because someone guns for PI/gov as first choice doesn't mean he/she can't be more competition for big law. Am I wrong?

Princetonlaw68 wrote:

Tiago Splitter wrote:Back in 2005, GULC placed less than 10% of its grads into government positions. In 2012, GULC placed 15% of its grads into government positions. PI also shot up rapidly. This while government and PI hiring became harder, not easier. Make of that what you will.

This seems to be in line with my thought process, I think?

Princetonlaw68 wrote:

Tiago Splitter wrote:Back in 2005, GULC placed less than 10% of its grads into government positions. In 2012, GULC placed 15% of its grads into government positions. PI also shot up rapidly. This while government and PI hiring became harder, not easier. Make of that what you will.

Actually, just to clarify, does anyone know if GULC had the same scholarship programs for people doing PI/Gov in 2005 as they do now. That variable could affect this as well.

hunter.d wrote:

Princetonlaw68 wrote:

Tiago Splitter wrote:Back in 2005, GULC placed less than 10% of its grads into government positions. In 2012, GULC placed 15% of its grads into government positions. PI also shot up rapidly. This while government and PI hiring became harder, not easier. Make of that what you will.

This seems to be in line with my thought process, I think?

Plus another 10% in 2012 in PI positions.

Cicero76 wrote:because it's hard to say your school's mission is serving the public and the government when you fleece that same public to pay your absurd tuition.

nicholasavallone wrote:I'm curious what impact the PT program has upon GULC's biglaw employment rate. They count the PT grads in the numbers for any given year, adding about 100, or 16 percent to the total. If PT students aren't getting biglaw, then that may account for some of the anecdotal difference between GULC biglaw prospects, (which according to GULC students don't seem as bad as the rep would suggest) and the LST "reality." All I've noticed is that there is no differentiation between PT and FT in employment data, just this out there as a possibility, though if somebody can refute, go to it.

nicholasavallone wrote:From LST, 248 students landed 101+ attorney jobs (the site's definition of large firm). Assuming (big assumption) that almost all of these are from the FT program, the number goes up closer to 50 percent biggish law, which is way more in line with other T-14s. I get that people have had bad experiences trying to place into DC, but when you go beyond the GULC sucks echo chamber that seems to exist, the number might not be that bad.

Tiago Splitter wrote:But therein lies the problem with GULC. You have to come up with fictional scenarios for it to even look "not that bad." Perhaps there really is massive self-selection into government and PI, self-selection that didn't exist back in 2005. Perhaps every part timer skips OCI and plans to just go back to a JD advantage job. The nice thing about the rest of the T-14 is that in most years we don't have to play this guessing game. You have to look at the numbers conservatively when you're putting 200k on the line, and in that light GULC just doesn't stack up.

nicholasavallone wrote:

Tiago Splitter wrote:But therein lies the problem with GULC. You have to come up with fictional scenarios for it to even look "not that bad." Perhaps there really is massive self-selection into government and PI, self-selection that didn't exist back in 2005. Perhaps every part timer skips OCI and plans to just go back to a JD advantage job. The nice thing about the rest of the T-14 is that in most years we don't have to play this guessing game. You have to look at the numbers conservatively when you're putting 200k on the line, and in that light GULC just doesn't stack up.

I guess my big problem is that everybody makes it seem like GULC is an objectively terrible option for biglaw, without taking into account the PT program's impact on the numbers. Without PT, the percentage is right in line with Duke and NU, and a little below Cornell for biglaw. Not saying its on par with HYS, and its fed clerkship numbers aren't great even compared with DNC, but I don't think its out of line to suggest that paying for GULC isn't the biglaw world ender that everybody makes it out to be, especially since firms do recruit from median at OCI.

twenty wrote:The only data that's going to solve this big mystery is: what percentage of students that participate in OCI end up getting offers?