T6 or GTFO Forum

[yomisterd]

A partner at a V20 firm that I have met before (former boss of parental unit) made a statement that prospective law students should not even go to law school if they are not going to a T6 school. Thoughts? Especially as someone currently in the middle of an application cycle, I am curious as to what others in TLS have to say.

[Tiago Splitter]

Obviously a little strong, but it's good to hear a boomer trying to scare people away from law school.

[yomisterd]

Obviously a little strong, but it's good to hear a boomer trying to scare people away from law school.

I wonder if part of him was basically stating, "We don't hire anyone but T6. So don't go anywhere except T6."

[Mal Reynolds]

If you take out NYU I'm on board.

[yomisterd]

If you take out NYU I'm on board.

Why do you say that? (as someone strongly considering NYU)

[Tiago Splitter]

Obviously a little strong, but it's good to hear a boomer trying to scare people away from law school.

I wonder if part of him was basically stating, "We don't hire anyone but T6. So don't go anywhere except T6."

There isn't any firm that meets this criteria, so it can't be that.

[patogordo]

this is pretty dumb. there are good outcomes and bad outcomes at every school. just some have more good than others. it comes down to individual CBA.

[Mal Reynolds]

If you take out NYU I'm on board.

Why do you say that? (as someone strongly considering NYU)

It's the runt of the litter.

[Rangers5]

Seems too strong to me. IMO a full ride to a top 14 school is still worth it.

[politics89]

If you take out NYU I'm on board.

Why do you say that? (as someone strongly considering NYU)

It's the runt of the litter.

Does this change if one gets a named scholarship? Thoughts?

[SonlenNightfall]

I'm sure this is the same sort of person who would suggest that the only steak you should eat is Kobe beef, and that the only suits you should ever wear are ones tailored in France.

Basically, this is someone who is quite out of touch with quality standards of normal people. A partner at a v20 firm could never IMAGINE going to a lowly school like UVA or Penn, so they fail to take into account that law school applicants are not partners at v20 firms and thus might find value where they see none. A homeless man sees non-Kobe beef in a very different light than a v20 partner does...

Maybe what this person meant was that "if you want to be a partner at a v20 law firm, you need to go to a T6 school". That assertion, while debatable, at least makes sense. However, is would be very stupid for that person to argue that everyone at UVA, UPenn, ect (regardless of career goals) is making a massive mistake. Let's hope he/she isn't that idiotic, or god help whatever v20 they work for.

[yomisterd]

Seems too strong to me. IMO a full ride to a top 14 school is still worth it.

I think he might have meant that if you were paying sticker, the only schools worth going to are T6 (or maybe he DID say T5 *nod to Mal*)

[Rahviveh]

Ahem

Its T4.... At least it is for the next month or so

[Mal Reynolds]

If you take out NYU I'm on board.

Why do you say that? (as someone strongly considering NYU)

It's the runt of the litter.

Does this change if one gets a named scholarship? Thoughts?

I'm just saying there is an anchoring problem. NYU is ranked number six. I wouldn't want to go to the school in the bottom of the top six. I would rather go to Penn, which is the top of the bottom fourteen. It's a matter of perception and these things matter to employers.

[Rangers5]

Seems too strong to me. IMO a full ride to a top 14 school is still worth it.

I think he might have meant that if you were paying sticker, the only schools worth going to are T6 (or maybe he DID say T5 *nod to Mal*)

That would definitely make a lot more sense and I would probably agree. If you're able to graduate from a top 14 with little to no debt, I would definitely say that is also worth it.

[Clearly]

I'm sure this is the same sort of person who would suggest that the only steak you should eat is Kobe beef, and that the only suits you should ever wear are ones tailored in France.

Basically, this is someone who is quite out of touch with quality standards of normal people. A partner at a v20 firm could never IMAGINE going to a lowly school like UVA or Penn, so they fail to take into account that law school applicants are not partners at v20 firms and thus might find value where they see none. A homeless man sees non-Kobe beef in a very different light than a v20 partner does...

Maybe what this person meant was that "if you want to be a partner at a v20 law firm, you need to go to a T6 school". That assertion, while debatable, at least makes sense. However, is would be very stupid for that person to argue that everyone at UVA, UPenn, ect (regardless of career goals) is making a massive mistake. Let's hope he/she isn't that idiotic, or god help whatever v20 they work for.

Um...plenty of v20 partners are from Penn...

[moonman157]

These kind of statements are way too broad to serve as a good rule. But while it may be too broad to say that only six schools are worth going to, you should probably at least have numbers that are T14 worthy, or close to that, regardless of where you go to law school.

[Tiago Splitter]

I'm sure this is the same sort of person who would suggest that the only steak you should eat is Kobe beef, and that the only suits you should ever wear are ones tailored in France.

Basically, this is someone who is quite out of touch with quality standards of normal people. A partner at a v20 firm could never IMAGINE going to a lowly school like UVA or Penn, so they fail to take into account that law school applicants are not partners at v20 firms and thus might find value where they see none. A homeless man sees non-Kobe beef in a very different light than a v20 partner does...

Maybe what this person meant was that "if you want to be a partner at a v20 law firm, you need to go to a T6 school". That assertion, while debatable, at least makes sense. However, is would be very stupid for that person to argue that everyone at UVA, UPenn, ect (regardless of career goals) is making a massive mistake. Let's hope he/she isn't that idiotic, or god help whatever v20 they work for.

This doesn't make any sense either. Lots of partners at V20 firms graduated from non-T6 schools.

[yomisterd]

I'm sure this is the same sort of person who would suggest that the only steak you should eat is Kobe beef, and that the only suits you should ever wear are ones tailored in France.

Basically, this is someone who is quite out of touch with quality standards of normal people. A partner at a v20 firm could never IMAGINE going to a lowly school like UVA or Penn, so they fail to take into account that law school applicants are not partners at v20 firms and thus might find value where they see none. A homeless man sees non-Kobe beef in a very different light than a v20 partner does...

Maybe what this person meant was that "if you want to be a partner at a v20 law firm, you need to go to a T6 school". That assertion, while debatable, at least makes sense. However, is would be very stupid for that person to argue that everyone at UVA, UPenn, ect (regardless of career goals) is making a massive mistake. Let's hope he/she isn't that idiotic, or god help whatever v20 they work for.

Um...plenty of v20 partners are from Penn...

I think it is important considering the statement made in light of the current legal market rather than who at the height of their career has degrees from where. I tend to think the guy has a point, at least if it comes to paying sticker. However, I would agree with previous posters that a full scholly at a lower T14 (or strong regional depending on career goals) can still be worthwhile.

It seems to me though that the general consensus on TLS is that almost nowhere is worth sticker nowadays, and it seems this partners statement kind of reflects that consensus.

[SonlenNightfall]

I'm sure this is the same sort of person who would suggest that the only steak you should eat is Kobe beef, and that the only suits you should ever wear are ones tailored in France.

Basically, this is someone who is quite out of touch with quality standards of normal people. Beginning of sarcasm A partner at a v20 firm could never IMAGINE going to a lowly school like UVA or Penn end of sarcasm, so they fail to take into account that law school applicants are not partners at v20 firms and thus might find value where they see none. A homeless man sees non-Kobe beef in a very different light than a v20 partner does...

Maybe what this person meant was that "if you want to be a partner at a v20 law firm, you need to go to a T6 school". That assertion, while debatable, at least makes sense. However, is would be very stupid for that person to argue that everyone at UVA, UPenn, ect (regardless of career goals) is making a massive mistake. Let's hope he/she isn't that idiotic, or god help whatever v20 they work for.

Um...plenty of v20 partners are from Penn...

Sorry bout that. Fixed it.

[Otunga]

These kind of statements are way too broad to serve as a good rule. But while it may be too broad to say that only six schools are worth going to, you should probably at least have numbers that are T14 worthy, or close to that, regardless of where you go to law school.

I tend to agree with that, but for people who are all about Prosecutor/PD jobs, or just any small law in their region, then you can have non-t14 numbers and get full rides at regionals. Basically then it's true the majority of the time.

Lower t14 numbers usually get sizable scholarships at T30, but true, once your numbers are at median for T30s, or at median for anywhere below T1, then it's not a great idea to attend LS.

[kaiser]

Silly distinction. Sure, if you are talking NYC V20 firms, then your best shot will come from a T6 school (just take a look at the numbers at some of the top firms, and see how many darn NYU and Columbia lawyers you find), but there are absolutely a solid number of Penn folks too, and people from other high-ranking schools. So to make such a narrow distinction just doesn't seem to make sense. I could perhaps see the argument for someone saying "T14 or don't bother" but this goes too far.

[Tiago Splitter]

The guy was basically trying to say that going to law school right now is a really bad idea, and picked some arbitrary cutoff below which no one should go. He could have said T10, T14, T20 or whatever, but regardless this is good news. Hopefully he talks to a lot of prospective law students.

[manu6926]

It's the runt of the litter.

Does this change if one gets a named scholarship? Thoughts?

I'm just saying there is an anchoring problem. NYU is ranked number six. I wouldn't want to go to the school in the bottom of the top six. I would rather go to Penn, which is the top of the bottom fourteen. It's a matter of perception and these things matter to employers.

NYU has not always been ranked number 6. It was ranked 4th in 2008, 2007, 2001, 1999/2000, and was ranked 5th in several years.
See http://www.law.stanford.edu/sites/defau ... l-rp20.pdf
Basing a prestige/reputation argument just on this year's or last year's ranking seems absurd.

Moreover, in terms of top NY firms placement, there does seem to be a clear top 6 distinction.

Paul Weiss (NY):
NYU: 95
Penn: 37

Cleary (NY):
NYU: 118
Penn: 30

Sure, Penn has a smaller class size and many Penn grads may not want to work in NY. But when the difference in numbers is this huge, I speculate that a difference in chance (or preference of employers) may be a factor here.

Besides, it's understandable why firms want T6. Entry standards are highest at HYSCCN.
http://www.leiterrankings.com/new/2010_ ... ools.shtml

[Mal Reynolds]

It's the runt of the litter.

Does this change if one gets a named scholarship? Thoughts?

I'm just saying there is an anchoring problem. NYU is ranked number six. I wouldn't want to go to the school in the bottom of the top six. I would rather go to Penn, which is the top of the bottom fourteen. It's a matter of perception and these things matter to employers.

NYU has not always been ranked number 6. It was ranked 4th in 2008, 2007, 2001, 1999/2000, and was ranked 5th in several years.
See http://www.law.stanford.edu/sites/defau ... l-rp20.pdf
Basing a prestige/reputation argument just on this year's or last year's ranking seems absurd.

Moreover, in terms of top NY firms placement, there does seem to be a clear top 6 distinction.

Paul Weiss (NY):
NYU: 95
Penn: 37

Cleary (NY):
NYU: 118
Penn: 30

Sure, Penn has a smaller class size and many Penn grads may not want to work in NY. But when the difference in numbers is this huge, I speculate that a difference in chance (or preference of employers) may be a factor here.

Besides, it's understandable why firms want T6. Entry standards are highest at HYSCCN.
http://www.leiterrankings.com/new/2010_ ... ools.shtml

Oh so you're saying someone should base their decision on costs and benefits with regard to employment statistics instead of dumb bright lines? This is shocking.