Michigan v. Pursuing Waitlist for Penn/UVA Forum

[DrStudMuffin]

As a current michigan student who is not on Dean Z's payroll: pray to get off one of those waitlists

What makes you say this? Anything beyond Michigan's relatively weak biglaw performance of late?

[OfThriceandTen]

Michigan will get you to Cali easier than Penn/UVA but that's about it for your situation. We've been pretty consistently slaughtered in D.C. unless you have fantastic grades + real reason to be there (other than vague "I want to do government work?"). If those really are your career goals, you should hope Penn lets you in or ED UVA next cycle. Or retake.

I should caveat. Slaughtered at DC OCI. People hoping to do more traditional (non-gov) non-profit work in DC seem to have as easy of a time as anywhere else (which is to say, not easy but doable).

[CTT]

As a current michigan student who is not on Dean Z's payroll: pray to get off one of those waitlists

As another Michigan student who's not on Dean Z's payroll: I guess you can't have 1000 students without having some folks who wanted and couldn't land a biglaw job. Think it's the law school's fault? Michigan is an awesome place to go to law school, but if you end up at OCI with a 3.1 and you're awkward, you're going have a tough time finding a big firm that wants to hire you. Especially if you blame someone else.

[Clearly]

I think you're overestimating your odds at Penn. You're below both medians.

[admiringatticus]

Hell, I don't think anyone who scores below 170 should be a lawyer anyways.

Umm, harsh.

“Too general a conclusion is made about a profession on the basis of a single test”

[Otunga]

Hell, I don't think anyone who scores below 170 should be a lawyer anyways.

Umm, harsh.

“Too general a conclusion is made about a profession on the basis of a single test”

Saying anyone shouldn't go to LS at under a 170 is more reasonable but that's nuts as well.

[OfThriceandTen]

As a current michigan student who is not on Dean Z's payroll: pray to get off one of those waitlists

As another Michigan student who's not on Dean Z's payroll: I guess you can't have 1000 students without having some folks who wanted and couldn't land a biglaw job. Think it's the law school's fault? Michigan is an awesome place to go to law school, but if you end up at OCI with a 3.1 and you're awkward, you're going have a tough time finding a big firm that wants to hire you. Especially if you blame someone else.

You're a 1L? I get the desire to defend the institution you're giving more money than a down payment on a personal jet, but you're coming off as a snobbish, out-of-touch prick. You have zero experience with who does and does not get jobs through OCI or elsewhere. Anecdotally I saw a lot of struggle this year, although we won't really see until numbers come out how bad it was compared to our peers. You're going to be in the class benefitting from the arbitrary curve bump, so your ability to see things without a rose-colored twinge seems suspect.

[emaytch]

Good morning everyone! I'm a little confused about the presumption that Michigan does not place many people in DC and/or that Penn is better for DC. Michigan had about 43 people from the class of 2012 get jobs in DC compared to Penn's 20. Additionally, only 16 people from Penn's 2012 class went into public interest or government work compared to 73 from Michigan. Penn would clearly be a great choice (if I could get in) if I wanted to do BigLaw.

[gnuwheels]

As a current michigan student who is not on Dean Z's payroll: pray to get off one of those waitlists

As another Michigan student who's not on Dean Z's payroll: I guess you can't have 1000 students without having some folks who wanted and couldn't land a biglaw job. Think it's the law school's fault? Michigan is an awesome place to go to law school, but if you end up at OCI with a 3.1 and you're awkward, you're going have a tough time finding a big firm that wants to hire you. Especially if you blame someone else.

I got a big law job. Nice straw man though.

[jk148706]

As a current michigan student who is not on Dean Z's payroll: pray to get off one of those waitlists

Why?

[DrStudMuffin]

As a current michigan student who is not on Dean Z's payroll: pray to get off one of those waitlists

As another Michigan student who's not on Dean Z's payroll: I guess you can't have 1000 students without having some folks who wanted and couldn't land a biglaw job. Think it's the law school's fault? Michigan is an awesome place to go to law school, but if you end up at OCI with a 3.1 and you're awkward, you're going have a tough time finding a big firm that wants to hire you. Especially if you blame someone else.

I got a big law job. Nice straw man though.

So what's your beef then? Genuinely curious.

[jk148706]

As a current michigan student who is not on Dean Z's payroll: pray to get off one of those waitlists

As another Michigan student who's not on Dean Z's payroll: I guess you can't have 1000 students without having some folks who wanted and couldn't land a biglaw job. Think it's the law school's fault? Michigan is an awesome place to go to law school, but if you end up at OCI with a 3.1 and you're awkward, you're going have a tough time finding a big firm that wants to hire you. Especially if you blame someone else.

I got a big law job. Nice straw man though.

So what's your beef then? Genuinely curious.

As am I.

[JustHawkin]

I got a big law job. Nice straw man though.

So what's your beef then? Genuinely curious.

As am I.[/quote]
+1.

[gnuwheels]

I got a big law job. Nice straw man though.

So what's your beef then? Genuinely curious.

As am I.

+1.

I don't want to get into too many details because I don't really want to get into a debate about it on here or out myself, but i'll say a few things. First of all, I said that you should definitely prefer UVA and Penn over Michigan. That doesn't mean that I think Michigan is a terrible school or that you should pick any other T14 over it or something, but based on my experience here and knowing people at P and V, I think Michigan definitely struggles behind them. Second, this is really from a biglaw-in-major-markets-focused perspective. If you're PI or gov't or even clerkship or secondary-market biglaw focused, its a different story.

But as far as biglaw is going Michigan has been in decline and no one can deny that. As the large midwest markets shrink and continue to shrink, Michigan students are instead focusing on New York more and more and its just a matter of fact that they have to line up behind YHSCCNPV kids, and maybe even others, for those jobs. Michigan used to place a significant portion of their class in the best Chicago firms but that number has shrunk significantly. It's not Michigan's fault, but where do you think all of those people are going now? A decline in Chicago placement doesn't equal an increase in NY placement.

Also, I think my frustration comes from the fact that the administration here obviously knows that job numbers have not been as good as our peers in recent years and yet they have failed to do basic things to help and have instead banked on promoting Michigan as this "collegial" fairyland where everyone is sunshine and rainbows. First of all, if Michigan isn't competitive, I don't want to see a school that is. I have plenty of horror stories, and I haven't heard anything worse from my friends at other schools. Also, the fact that the administration only just decided to change the curve here, despite knowing that it was well below our peer schools and pretending like that didn't matter, is pathetic.

I could go on: the chicago market is getting worse, East and West coast firms that are more frugal in this economy are dropping out of OCI because its not worth flying to Michigan, etc etc. As far I know UVA and Penn do not have systemic problems like these. Maybe raising the curve will make a big difference, check back in a year or so, but right now I'd say if you can get off one of those waitlists its a no brainer.

ETA: if you can get in as a summer starter that might be worth it. I don't know many summer starts but I've heard that they cleaned up at OCI since they get an extra semester of classes before OCI. that's one positive of michigan over V and P but it only applies to 1/4 of the class.

[CTT]

I got a big law job. Nice straw man though.

So what's your beef then? Genuinely curious.

As am I.

I don't want to get into too many details because I don't really want to get into a debate about it on here or out myself, but i'll say a few things. First of all, I said that you should definitely prefer UVA and Penn over Michigan. That doesn't mean that I think Michigan is a terrible school or that you should pick any other T14 over it or something, but based on my experience here and knowing people at P and V, I think Michigan definitely struggles behind them. Second, this is really from a biglaw-in-major-markets-focused perspective. If you're PI or gov't or even clerkship or secondary-market biglaw focused, its a different story.

But as far as biglaw is going Michigan has been in decline and no one can deny that. As the large midwest markets shrink and continue to shrink, Michigan students are instead focusing on New York more and more and its just a matter of fact that they have to line up behind YHSCCNPV kids, and maybe even others, for those jobs. Michigan used to place a significant portion of their class in the best Chicago firms but that number has shrunk significantly. It's not Michigan's fault, but where do you think all of those people are going now? A decline in Chicago placement doesn't equal an increase in NY placement.

Also, I think my frustration comes from the fact that the administration here obviously knows that job numbers have not been as good as our peers in recent years and yet they have failed to do basic things to help and have instead banked on promoting Michigan as this "collegial" fairyland where everyone is sunshine and rainbows. First of all, if Michigan isn't competitive, I don't want to see a school that is. I have plenty of horror stories, and I haven't heard anything worse from my friends at other schools. Also, the fact that the administration only just decided to change the curve here, despite knowing that it was well below our peer schools and pretending like that didn't matter, is pathetic.

I could go on: the chicago market is getting worse, East and West coast firms that are more frugal in this economy are dropping out of OCI because its not worth flying to Michigan, etc etc. As far I know UVA and Penn do not have systemic problems like these. Maybe raising the curve will make a big difference, check back in a year or so, but right now I'd say if you can get off one of those waitlists its a no brainer.

ETA: if you can get in as a summer starter that might be worth it. I don't know many summer starts but I've heard that they cleaned up at OCI since they get an extra semester of classes before OCI. that's one positive of michigan over V and P but it only applies to 1/4 of the class.

That's fair. Though I continue to believe that some of the disparity on BigLaw numbers is a result of Michigan tending to attract students who don't uniformly want to be on the east coast and who have, as a group, more of an interest in public interest work. If more Michigan students wanted to be doing BigLaw in NYC, the numbers would probably be better. Certainly, if you're accepted at Penn, you should expect Michigan to toss at least a little more money at you than Penn is offering.

For what it's worth, I don't find Michigan to be particularly competitive. I suppose it varies by section for 1Ls. Some people put a lot of pressure on themselves to do well. But I certainly can imaging other law schools being far worse.

Also, the economy is getting better, and they did fix the grade curve. Student who are 3.4 and at median are going to look better against candidates from other schools than those who were 3.2 and at median did. On top of that, the school is shrinking its classes somewhat, which should improve OCI performance in coming years.

[StillCutty]

As a current michigan student who is not on Dean Z's payroll: pray to get off one of those waitlists

As another Michigan student who's not on Dean Z's payroll: I guess you can't have 1000 students without having some folks who wanted and couldn't land a biglaw job. Think it's the law school's fault? Michigan is an awesome place to go to law school, but if you end up at OCI with a 3.1 and you're awkward, you're going have a tough time finding a big firm that wants to hire you. Especially if you blame someone else.

I got a big law job. Nice straw man though.

GOT HER

[gnuwheels]

I don't want to get into too many details because I don't really want to get into a debate about it on here or out myself, but i'll say a few things. First of all, I said that you should definitely prefer UVA and Penn over Michigan. That doesn't mean that I think Michigan is a terrible school or that you should pick any other T14 over it or something, but based on my experience here and knowing people at P and V, I think Michigan definitely struggles behind them. Second, this is really from a biglaw-in-major-markets-focused perspective. If you're PI or gov't or even clerkship or secondary-market biglaw focused, its a different story.

But as far as biglaw is going Michigan has been in decline and no one can deny that. As the large midwest markets shrink and continue to shrink, Michigan students are instead focusing on New York more and more and its just a matter of fact that they have to line up behind YHSCCNPV kids, and maybe even others, for those jobs. Michigan used to place a significant portion of their class in the best Chicago firms but that number has shrunk significantly. It's not Michigan's fault, but where do you think all of those people are going now? A decline in Chicago placement doesn't equal an increase in NY placement.

Also, I think my frustration comes from the fact that the administration here obviously knows that job numbers have not been as good as our peers in recent years and yet they have failed to do basic things to help and have instead banked on promoting Michigan as this "collegial" fairyland where everyone is sunshine and rainbows. First of all, if Michigan isn't competitive, I don't want to see a school that is. I have plenty of horror stories, and I haven't heard anything worse from my friends at other schools. Also, the fact that the administration only just decided to change the curve here, despite knowing that it was well below our peer schools and pretending like that didn't matter, is pathetic.

I could go on: the chicago market is getting worse, East and West coast firms that are more frugal in this economy are dropping out of OCI because its not worth flying to Michigan, etc etc. As far I know UVA and Penn do not have systemic problems like these. Maybe raising the curve will make a big difference, check back in a year or so, but right now I'd say if you can get off one of those waitlists its a no brainer.

ETA: if you can get in as a summer starter that might be worth it. I don't know many summer starts but I've heard that they cleaned up at OCI since they get an extra semester of classes before OCI. that's one positive of michigan over V and P but it only applies to 1/4 of the class.

That's fair. Though I continue to believe that some of the disparity on BigLaw numbers is a result of Michigan tending to attract students who don't uniformly want to be on the east coast and who have, as a group, more of an interest in public interest work. If more Michigan students wanted to be doing BigLaw in NYC, the numbers would probably be better. Certainly, if you're accepted at Penn, you should expect Michigan to toss at least a little more money at you than Penn is offering.

For what it's worth, I don't find Michigan to be particularly competitive. I suppose it varies by section for 1Ls. Some people put a lot of pressure on themselves to do well. But I certainly can imaging other law schools being far worse.

Also, the economy is getting better, and they did fix the grade curve. Student who are 3.4 and at median are going to look better against candidates from other schools than those who were 3.2 and at median did. On top of that, the school is shrinking its classes somewhat, which should improve OCI performance in coming years.

Wholeheartedly agree with the bolded. I think the changing of the curve could have a significant effect, so hopefully my comments won't apply as much in the future. I think a lot of my frustration comes from the fact that they let the curve sit that low for so long, while constantly denying that it had any effect, and then quietly acknowledged the opposite by finally changing it.

Also, agreed that competitiveness can vary section by section. Just saying Michigan/Dean Z sell the "collegial" thing REALLY hard and its kind of bullshit. I think it may have been that way a while ago but these days I get the impression its like any other school. So no one should put any weight on it when making a decision.

All in all, maybe "pray to get off one of those waitlists" was a little strong. Obviously if Michigan is your only option thats not bad, but if you did get off one of the others, I would choose one of them over M this cycle.

[CTT]

Wholeheartedly agree with the bolded. I think the changing of the curve could have a significant effect, so hopefully my comments won't apply as much in the future. I think a lot of my frustration comes from the fact that they let the curve sit that low for so long, while constantly denying that it had any effect, and then quietly acknowledged the opposite by finally changing it.

Also, agreed that competitiveness can vary section by section. Just saying Michigan/Dean Z sell the "collegial" thing REALLY hard and its kind of bullshit. I think it may have been that way a while ago but these days I get the impression its like any other school. So no one should put any weight on it when making a decision.

All in all, maybe "pray to get off one of those waitlists" was a little strong. Obviously if Michigan is your only option thats not bad, but if you did get off one of the others, I would choose one of them over M this cycle.

I think having the lawyers club with the connected layout may have made my class more chill than in the past. I have heard a couple stories about students in past years being jackasses (betting on grades, posting shit on facebook, or studying at dinner). My class is great .

They really fixed everything for us. We got the new grading curve, south hall and the lawyers club complete, the economy looking a bit better, and slightly easier admissions standards. The last couple classes have had it rough.

[BigZuck]

Wait, do you mean to tell me that "Dean Z's" Cool Aunt schtick was just a schtick and Michigan is no more chill and sociable than any other law school?

I feel like I was just punched in the stomach.

[cron1834]

I don't want to get into too many details because I don't really want to get into a debate about it on here or out myself, but i'll say a few things. First of all, I said that you should definitely prefer UVA and Penn over Michigan. That doesn't mean that I think Michigan is a terrible school or that you should pick any other T14 over it or something, but based on my experience here and knowing people at P and V, I think Michigan definitely struggles behind them. Second, this is really from a biglaw-in-major-markets-focused perspective. If you're PI or gov't or even clerkship or secondary-market biglaw focused, its a different story.

But as far as biglaw is going Michigan has been in decline and no one can deny that. As the large midwest markets shrink and continue to shrink, Michigan students are instead focusing on New York more and more and its just a matter of fact that they have to line up behind YHSCCNPV kids, and maybe even others, for those jobs. Michigan used to place a significant portion of their class in the best Chicago firms but that number has shrunk significantly. It's not Michigan's fault, but where do you think all of those people are going now? A decline in Chicago placement doesn't equal an increase in NY placement.

Also, I think my frustration comes from the fact that the administration here obviously knows that job numbers have not been as good as our peers in recent years and yet they have failed to do basic things to help and have instead banked on promoting Michigan as this "collegial" fairyland where everyone is sunshine and rainbows. First of all, if Michigan isn't competitive, I don't want to see a school that is. I have plenty of horror stories, and I haven't heard anything worse from my friends at other schools. Also, the fact that the administration only just decided to change the curve here, despite knowing that it was well below our peer schools and pretending like that didn't matter, is pathetic.

I could go on: the chicago market is getting worse, East and West coast firms that are more frugal in this economy are dropping out of OCI because its not worth flying to Michigan, etc etc. As far I know UVA and Penn do not have systemic problems like these. Maybe raising the curve will make a big difference, check back in a year or so, but right now I'd say if you can get off one of those waitlists its a no brainer.

ETA: if you can get in as a summer starter that might be worth it. I don't know many summer starts but I've heard that they cleaned up at OCI since they get an extra semester of classes before OCI. that's one positive of michigan over V and P but it only applies to 1/4 of the class.

Would love to hear a few, if possible without outing!

[CTT]

Wait, do you mean to tell me that "Dean Z's" Cool Aunt schtick was just a schtick and Michigan is no more chill and sociable than any other law school?

I feel like I was just punched in the stomach.

Think we are actually very sociable and chill. Whether people are competitive or not is a slightly different question and something that I'm sure varies by section and class year. At the end of the day, you're sticking more than 300 smart people in a bell curve with jobs on the line, so there's pressure and frustration, but I think most students know where to draw the line. At least with respect to the 1Ls in the lawyer club, pretty much everyone goes out frequently.