Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard Forum

[dobryden]

Hi everyone. I figured I would also add my situation into the mix. I am looking for any input that anyone can offer!

Goals: Public interest, looking for a position in the federal government. The dream job is at the Department of State, so training in public international law is critical. Also interested in immigration and refugee law, would be open to pursuing a clerkship, want to dabble in public policy classes, and looking to get lots of hands-on clinical experience.

No connections to Chicago, Boston, or New Haven. Want to tap into the DC market.

Also, I am extremely debt averse. I haven't received financial information from either Harvard or Yale yet, but I don't have significant assets, so I hope I will receive some kind of need-based assistance.

Any advice is welcome! Thank you in advance for giving me perspective on this.

[crit_racer]

cross harvard off your list.

Sounds like Yale might be better for your interests than UChi

[twenty]

Given none of your goals are biglaw, Yale by a lot.

[AllTheLawz]

Chicago and this isn't close. The added value of no debt at all far outweighs anything from H or Y. Even with max aid you are looking at ~100k in debt from either H or Y.

[chizzy]

.

[AllTheLawz]

I'm really confused.. what exactly do people think the added value of H/Y is compared to Chicago with literally zero debt? Placement into fed gov't/clerkships from Chicago isn't exactly unrealistic.

ETA: throw all the stuff about classes out the window. Odds of any Public Int'l class you take being a career game changer are pretty much zero and all of these schools have enough int'l focused class to keep you interested.

[twenty]

OP wants:

The dream job is at the Department of State

Yale wins this by a landslide.

Also interested in immigration and refugee law,

Chicago and Yale are equally good.

would be open to pursuing a clerkship

Yale by a landslide.

want to dabble in public policy classes

Yale, but why this is a factor I don't know.

[dobryden]

OP wants:

want to dabble in public policy classes

Yale, but why this is a factor I don't know.

Some advice I've heard from friends in gov't suggests that taking public policy courses (or pursuing a joint degree) signals an extra level of commitment to the field.

Clearly, people think that Yale has more of the things that I want to make my career possible. But is it really worth the debt? Those who think so, can you explain why?

[AllTheLawz]

I just want/need to point out that I don't think the posters in this thread are commenting with an understanding of how federal government entry-level hiring works. The only fed gov't department that hires entry-level lawyers in significant numbers is DOJ. For every other department there are a number of variables in play that outweigh the difference between a Yale v. Chicago degree.

For the Dept. of state in particular, entry-level hiring is less than 10 per year I believe. Other non-DOJ departments hire similar amounts.

Do you really want to make a $100k+ decision based upon the possibility that it may improve your chances of getting a specific fed gov't job by a minuscule amount? Unless you are fine with the possibility of DoJ (and even that is super competitive as the VAST majority of people at both H and Y that targeted DoJ honors are shut out), you need to know how the odds play out.

[Law Sauce]

Its close, but I'd do Chicago for free. Puts you in such a great position to have no debt. The fear of ending up low in the class at Chicago is the only real worry (because at Yale, everyone is safe pretty much). Personally, I'd say that the debt is not worth it for the edge Yale gives you.

[twenty]

Some advice I've heard from friends in gov't suggests that taking public policy courses (or pursuing a joint degree) signals an extra level of commitment to the field.

This is definitely true to some degree, but DOS or EOIR are so insanely competitive, extra public policy courses aren't going to help you that much. Both Chicago and Yale will have equally similar opportunities for that, with perhaps a slight edge to Yale. But not much.

For the Dept. of state in particular, entry-level hiring is less than 10 per year I believe. Other non-DOJ departments hire similar amounts.

The difference is, Department of State is significantly more competitive than, say, HUD honors hiring, even though both hire the same amount of people.

If OP wants a prestigious fed-govt spot, a federal clerkship, or EOIR, then go big or go home.

[Vincent]

Placement aside, why has no one mentioned Yale's insanely good LRAP yet?

[stillwater]

Yale.

/thread.

[worldtraveler]

If you want State, then you want to go to Yale. But even from Yale that is very hard to get and if the small chance of your dream job is not worth the debt, that's a personal choice.

The rest of the stuff you list you can get from any of these schools.


I

[abl]

Yale's an easy call for your interests. Your chances of getting your dream employment are reasonably low in each school, but you're talking about a huge difference still -- going to Yale may double your chance of the gov stuff you want, and probably more than doubles your chance of clerkships. The debt is close to meaningless if you're going into public interest: Yale's loan repayment system's going to pay it all back anyways in 10 years. The debt factors in when you think about (a) career mobility (you'll be somewhat limited to stay in qualifying PI with the debt at Yale [note: just about everything qualifies]), or (b) going into private interest (as then you won't get any meaningful loan repayment.

[worldtraveler]

Guys even if you get LRAP, that is not the same thing as a full ride. It is still debt hanging over your head and it really limits the type of employment you can have. Some PI jobs are actually very high paying, and you can make 6 figures or more within just a few years, which leaves you stuck paying most of that off (depends on the LRAP, I know). It's also just a giant pain to deal with.

It's great that it's there but don't pretend for a second you can equate it to going to school for free.

[Cicero76]

I have friends who made this choice (and chose Yale). None of them regret it, and I can ask what the biggest factor for them was.

[AllTheLawz]

Yale's an easy call for your interests. Your chances of getting your dream employment are reasonably low in each school, but you're talking about a huge difference still -- going to Yale may double your chance of the gov stuff you want, and probably more than doubles your chance of clerkships. The debt is close to meaningless if you're going into public interest: Yale's loan repayment system's going to pay it all back anyways in 10 years. The debt factors in when you think about (a) career mobility (you'll be somewhat limited to stay in qualifying PI with the debt at Yale [note: just about everything qualifies]), or (b) going into private interest (as then you won't get any meaningful loan repayment.

Umm.. Yale doubles your chance in the sense that it changes your odds of getting Dept. of State from .5% to 1%. Doubling here is not meaningful. Also, debt is a consideration even given LRAP since a gov't salary will grow out of the zero range pretty quickly and you will have to make some (albeit small) payments. In addition, a portion of your spouse's income counts towards LRAP calculations plus a number of other factors. If you are in your 5th year in government making $80k (not unrealistic) plus have a spouse making $100k (again, not unrealistic) then LRAP contributes very little, if anything.

LRAP programs aren't as simple as just take a PI job and everything is paid for.

Some advice I've heard from friends in gov't suggests that taking public policy courses (or pursuing a joint degree) signals an extra level of commitment to the field.

This is definitely true to some degree, but DOS or EOIR are so insanely competitive, extra public policy courses aren't going to help you that much. Both Chicago and Yale will have equally similar opportunities for that, with perhaps a slight edge to Yale. But not much.

For the Dept. of state in particular, entry-level hiring is less than 10 per year I believe. Other non-DOJ departments hire similar amounts.

The difference is, Department of State is significantly more competitive than, say, HUD honors hiring, even though both hire the same amount of people.

If OP wants a prestigious fed-govt spot, a federal clerkship, or EOIR, then go big or go home.

Among the 10 or people hired by dept of state each year are michigan grads, nyu grads (i personally know one), chicago grads, harvard grads (again personally know one), and a variety of other schools mixed in. Maybe one or two of the dozens of Yale grads that apply get the job in a good year.

I'm always shocked at how quickly people ignore debt for a minuscule increase in what people think is a dream job. As someone who has seen the process at HYS, I promise you that the vast majority people who shoot for these jobs end up missing out.

[brotherdarkness]

.

[The Brainalist]

Yale's COAP shouldn't factor in much, if at all, because you'll be making more than 100k by the end of year 3 as a GS 14. http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversigh ... -and-step/
During those first 3 years it will be phasing out.

[twenty]

Unquestioningly, the best LRAP is the kind where you don't pay anything because you went to school for free.

Some PI jobs are actually very high paying

This is going to be especially true if you can pull off a fed job that goes to GS-14, which it sounds like the OP wants.

The reason I say Yale is actually pretty simple. UChicago put 14.4% of their students in federal clerkships, while Yale put in over a third. In 2011, Chicago put <10% in A3, and Yale still put a third in. No matter what happens, Yale has a substantial edge on UChicago when it comes to A3.

If OP had even said, "I'm considering biglaw as a back up" I would be the first person to jump on the UChicago train. Not having any debt coming out of one of the top law schools in the country is terrific. But when OP wants to be in DC, wants to work in international human rights law, wants to go for a clerkship, etc. that all screams Yale.

Could OP get that from Chicago, too? No doubt. Will going to Yale increase the chances of getting that? No doubt. Is that financial distance worth 100k? I vote yes.

[The Brainalist]

Unquestioningly, the best LRAP is the kind where you don't pay anything because you went to school for free.

Some PI jobs are actually very high paying

This is going to be especially true if you can pull off a fed job that goes to GS-14, which it sounds like the OP wants.

The reason I say Yale is actually pretty simple. UChicago put 14.4% of their students in federal clerkships, while Yale put in over a third. In 2011, Chicago put <10% in A3, and Yale still put a third in. No matter what happens, Yale has a substantial edge on UChicago when it comes to A3.

If OP had even said, "I'm considering biglaw as a back up" I would be the first person to jump on the UChicago train. Not having any debt coming out of one of the top law schools in the country is terrific. But when OP wants to be in DC, wants to work in international human rights law, wants to go for a clerkship, etc. that all screams Yale.

Could OP get that from Chicago, too? No doubt. Will going to Yale increase the chances of getting that? No doubt. Is that financial distance worth 100k? I vote yes.

Brought to you courtesy of 1996: "When full tuition plus living expenses was 100k."

[twenty]

Brought to you courtesy of 1996: "When full tuition plus living expenses was 100k."

With need-based aid at Yale (assuming OP really doesn't have any significant financial assets), that may be a little bit low, but not by too much.

[The Brainalist]

Brought to you courtesy of 1996: "When full tuition plus living expenses was 100k."

With need-based aid at Yale (assuming OP really doesn't have any significant financial assets), that may be a little bit low, but not by too much.

The need-based aid at yale would have to be about 100k for your math to work (and it would require interest on loans to not be factored in at all). That's a lot to assume. Most people on this site give an estimate of about 300k on repayment as the true cost of attendance of full sticker/COA/interest. That doesn't even take into account the lost revenue of interest-bearing savings accounts or investments, or the personal costs of delayed home-ownership, vacations, or living in more humble neighborhoods.

[stevenash1313]

Ruby dude, debt is serious.

I honestly don't think there is a better outcome period than the Ruby or Hamilton in this law school game.