UChi Rubinstein v. Harvard Forum

[tralala]

delete

[tiltedwindmill]

K-JD, goals are very PI/fed/possibly academia? oriented. I have absolutely no idea what to do.

What is the total COA harvard?

[jselson]

Would you prefer to be on a quarter or a semester system? (I've been on both and vastly prefer semesters.) Would you prefer living in Chicago or Cambridge the next few years? Do you want to be grade on a traditional scale or H/P? Do you not have ties to Chicago or Boston and would like to possibly work there? Literally nothing else to decide.

[jselson]

Also, defer for a year and get real work experience.

[tralala]

Would you prefer to be on a quarter or a semester system? (I've been on both and vastly prefer semesters.) Would you prefer living in Chicago or Cambridge the next few years? Do you want to be grade on a traditional scale or H/P? Do you not have ties to Chicago or Boston and would like to possibly work there? Literally nothing else to decide.

No intention on deferring. I think H/P would be better than traditional scale but I have no major opinion on the other three points. I'd prefer Chicago slightly to Cambridge, but I have no major ties to either place. I'd ideally like to stay on the east coast in the future but I'm also flexible about that.

[jselson]

Would you prefer to be on a quarter or a semester system? (I've been on both and vastly prefer semesters.) Would you prefer living in Chicago or Cambridge the next few years? Do you want to be grade on a traditional scale or H/P? Do you not have ties to Chicago or Boston and would like to possibly work there? Literally nothing else to decide.

No intention on deferring. I think H/P would be better than traditional scale but I have no major opinion on the other three points. I'd prefer Chicago slightly to Cambridge, but I have no major ties to either place. I'd ideally like to stay on the east coast in the future but I'm also flexible about that.

Go visit and pick whichever one feels right, then. Enjoy the rest of your semester. Get wasted every night.

(Also, take a year off.)

[jselson]

Oh, if yer serious about academia, figure out which couple of professors you'd like to work with more. Then do that. But if you really wanted academia, you should've gone and done a PhD first.

[RodneyRuxin]

Take the Ruby and never look back. Much easier to stand out (grading system), easier to make professor connections (more friendly/approachable, teacher offices in the library), and that's a huge difference in cost.

I know multiple people who have done this, all are extremely successful, and I think anyone who makes the opposite decision is hung up on lay prestige.

[tralala]

Oh, if yer serious about academia, figure out which couple of professors you'd like to work with more. Then do that. But if you really wanted academia, you should've gone and done a PhD first.

Yeah, I think I just said that as a vague afterthought - not really related to my immediate career plans except in a vague long-term sense (it might be cool to be a clinical professor)

[2014]

I don't think this is a "can't go wrong with either, go with your heart" scenario, I think there is a firmly correct decision here and that decision is the Ruby.

Both schools have good job placement, both have good LRAP programs, and both can get you to the east coast just fine. The thing is you are targeting a series of competitive jobs which cuts Chicago's way in this instance for two reasons.

1. Chicago has a smaller student body and a large percent going to markets you don't care about (California/Texas/Maybe Chicago?) and so instead of competing with dozens of your classmates, many of which will not be K-JD (and so might have better demonstrated connections to PI orgs), you are competing with other schools. This allows the school to put relatively more resources into you at Chicago. This is especially true for Academia, in my experience there are less than a dozen people who are even interested at Chicago and so the faculty is extremely active in helping those who are.

2. Your best intention is to take advantage of LRAP i imagine and while that might seem like an equalizer, you can't underestimate the effect of having an extra $100-$250k of debt hanging over your head. It creates a lot of pressure to take certain kinds of jobs and to stay in them even if you aren't happy. Graduating almost debt free from as good of a school as Chicago gives you huge freedom.


There are a range of specific jobs where H might hold an advantage over Chi and if you are targeting one of those that is the only situation where I might back off my opinion, but it sounds like you want to preserve a large range of options in multiple cities, and financial flexibility is so helpful for that.

[jselson]

Take the Ruby and never look back. Much easier to stand out (grading system), easier to make professor connections (more friendly/approachable, teacher offices in the library), and that's a huge difference in cost.

I know multiple people who have done this, all are extremely successful, and I think anyone who makes the opposite decision is hung up on lay prestige.

1) If dude(tte) has a Ruby, (s)he''ll do fine at either HLS or Chi.

2) If dude(tte) wants PI or fed, (s)he'll essentially be paying the same amount back because of LRAPs.

3) If dude(tte) doesn't do quite as hot as expected, (s)he'll have to wonder whether $150,000 is worth the marginal differences in safety nets between Chi and HLS. Probably not, but it's only three more years on loans anyway. And at the tippy-top for fed stuff, HLS is superior.

4) Professors are friendly and approachable at HLS, too.

[jselson]

Oh, if yer serious about academia, figure out which couple of professors you'd like to work with more. Then do that. But if you really wanted academia, you should've gone and done a PhD first.

Yeah, I think I just said that as a vague afterthought - not really related to my immediate career plans except in a vague long-term sense (it might be cool to be a clinical professor)

Then think about it in 10 years.

[20170322]

Wait... Rubies still exist? I thought they were discontinued?

[tralala]

Oh, if yer serious about academia, figure out which couple of professors you'd like to work with more. Then do that. But if you really wanted academia, you should've gone and done a PhD first.

Yeah, I think I just said that as a vague afterthought - not really related to my immediate career plans except in a vague long-term sense (it might be cool to be a clinical professor)

Then think about it in 10 years.

Sounds good.

[Tiago Splitter]

If you aren't getting much aid from Harvard take the Ruby.

[lawschool2014hopeful]

I dont think Yale has handed out many rejections yet, so, wouldnt this be a false dichotomy?

[kershka]

I'm facing the same decision though I want to do clerkship then PI. I think I'm postponing the decision until I've visited both schools in person and get a feel for both. It's two amazing options; you really can't go wrong.

[smaug_]

If you aren't getting much aid from Harvard take the Ruby.

[Florence Night]

If you aren't getting much aid from Harvard take the Ruby.

Yeah this. It is hard to overstate how awesome of a deal it is to graduate from CCN with little to no debt. If you could go to Harvard for much less than sticker, it becomes tougher, sure. Harvard no doubt opens doors CCN does not. But sticker vs free is a monstrous difference that I don't think most fully appreciate until they're facing that mountain of debt, or, conversely, are going to law school free.

[NYstate]

Take the Ruby and never look back. Much easier to stand out (grading system), easier to make professor connections (more friendly/approachable, teacher offices in the library), and that's a huge difference in cost.

I know multiple people who have done this, all are extremely successful, and I think anyone who makes the opposite decision is hung up on lay prestige.

1) If dude(tte) has a Ruby, (s)he''ll do fine at either HLS or Chi.

2) If dude(tte) wants PI or fed, (s)he'll essentially be paying the same amount back because of LRAPs.

3) If dude(tte) doesn't do quite as hot as expected, (s)he'll have to wonder whether $150,000 is worth the marginal differences in safety nets between Chi and HLS. Probably not, but it's only three more years on loans anyway. And at the tippy-top for fed stuff, HLS is superior.

4) Professors are friendly and approachable at HLS, too.

Person giving this advice: have you graduated and dealt with debt from law school? Why do you so cavalierly recommend debt here?

1. The point of the ruby is free money so you have freedom. It makes how you perform irrelevant with respect to needing grades to get a job to repay loans. How OP performs becomes less important.

2. Do you know the salary for PI or government work qualifying for LRAP? It's low and not having to deduct any money for loans is better than paying loans even at a lower rate. Even more important, OP won't be trapped into staying in a qualifying job for 10 years.

3. Not sure what safety net you mean? Grades are not the deciding factor in PI rather than biglaw.
OP : Chicago is clearly the answer here. ( unless Harvard gives you a ton of need based aid) Don't be lured into taking debt from Harvard based on some intangible idea it might help you if you need it. Chicago is an amazing law school and extremely well-regarded. It may have less lay prestige because of the 0 L Harvard mystique, but employers and clients who matter are sophisticated enough to recognize Chicago.

There is absolutely no justification for a person who is PI minded to indenture themselves to unnecessary debt.

[NYstate]

If you aren't getting much aid from Harvard take the Ruby.

Yeah this. It is hard to overstate how awesome of a deal it is to graduate from CCN with little to no debt. If you could go to Harvard for much less than sticker, it becomes tougher, sure. Harvard no doubt opens doors CCN does not. But sticker vs free is a monstrous difference that I don't think most fully appreciate until they're facing that mountain of debt, or, conversely, are going to law school free.

I agree with this 100% except:

I would love to see some data on the doors that Harvard opens that Chicago does not. Is there a list somewhere? I think the difference is smaller than 0Ls might think. Like I said, old love to see the data.

[Emma.]

the difference is [much] smaller than 0Ls might think.

[drawstring]

I think it's mainly dat lay prestige that draws people to HLS in cases like this. Full tuition plus 15k a year at a top school is a great deal.

[phillywc]

Great decision to have to make! If you have Ruby numbers I bet S and Y are also in play. I think the Ruby is a tremendous opportunity and I'd probably go for that, but damn what an embarrassment of riches you are going to have to choose from.


If only you could retake college...

[Florence Night]

If you aren't getting much aid from Harvard take the Ruby.

Yeah this. It is hard to overstate how awesome of a deal it is to graduate from CCN with little to no debt. If you could go to Harvard for much less than sticker, it becomes tougher, sure. Harvard no doubt opens doors CCN does not. But sticker vs free is a monstrous difference that I don't think most fully appreciate until they're facing that mountain of debt, or, conversely, are going to law school free.

I agree with this 100% except:

I would love to see some data on the doors that Harvard opens that Chicago does not. Is there a list somewhere? I think the difference is smaller than 0Ls might think. Like I said, old love to see the daquote]

To be honest, I only mentioned that it opened more doors so as not to come off as a CCN homer. Data says you have a better shot at clerking from H but beyond that I'm not sure what difference there is either. I'd love to see numbers though!