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Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:59 am**

Hey TLS,

I know that UVA is ranked higher than GULC, but GULC has a great location and specializes in PI. I've also heard that to start a PI career, you need as much experience as possible, and GULC's location in DC gives me easy access to a lot of internships.

On the other hand, UVA is ranked decently higher than GULC.

Which one should I pick?

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:07 pm**

Borscht is Best wrote:Hey TLS,

I know that UVA is ranked higher than GULC, but GULC has a great location and specializes in PI. I've also heard that to start a PI career, you need as much experience as possible, and GULC's location in DC gives me easy access to a lot of internships.

On the other hand, UVA is ranked decently higher than GULC.

Which one should I pick?

Pretty much depends on cost/LRAP IMO. In a vacuum, I would probably lean GULC if only for the location (unless I specifically wanted PI in VA).

Eta: might also depend on whether those UVA school funded jobs are legit or not. Some say they are.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:13 pm**

Dunno about UVA but GULC's LRAP is pretty sick.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:29 pm**

I actually don't think you can go wrong with either one. Metaphorically speaking, if you want PI/govt in Virginia, at UVA, you will be a big fish in a small pond. I would imagine it would be very easy to connect with UVA's career services office and pick up a solid local DA/PD gig. With Georgetown, you will be an average-sized fish in a huge pond. While you might have the upper hand on the American/GWU/etc. graduates that traditionally place locally in the DC area, everyone and their cousin (i.e, HYS kids) wants to do govt/PI in DC. If you want a DC spot, you better be hustling from day one. Be prepared to be un/underemployed nine months after graduation.

That said, if you do come out successful, you have a govt/PI job in DC, which is effing awesome.

Being more risk-averse, I would pick GULC. If you're a K-JD (or close to it)/you don't have to work in DC/etc. I'd probably go with UVA.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:56 pm**

What are the costs of each?

I would go UVA.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:29 pm**

0L here. I was in this situation and picked UVA. I liked the UVA culture a lot more, but career wise:

-UVA offers school-funded positions in PI orgs. Most of these turn into real jobs after the year resulting in essentially no unemployment immediately after graduation. If you can't line something up by graduation, this is a huge safety net -- and maybe even a plan A to get your foot in the door somewhere that can't afford to pay a 1st year.
-UVA has a separate PI career services office, and students seem to be very satisfied with it.
-Georgetown has a larger class size, and more people looking for PI jobs, so I imagine it would be harder to distinguish yourself from your peers.
-UVA has clinics in the areas I want to practice, which I think will make up for fewer externship opportunities.
-UVA recently made it much easier to do a full-time externship in DC or elsewhere. 3L seems to be pretty useless, and this would give you the chance to spend one of those semesters getting full-time experience.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:45 pm**

jbagelboy wrote:What are the costs of each?

I would go UVA.

Also should add that for me cost was irrelevant. If you're eligible for PAYE/PSLF and 100% committed to public service, $75k debt isn't much different from $300k -- assuming you get that PI gig. Georgetown has a slightly better LRAP, but I gave UVA the advantage for reducing the risk of getting no PI gig at all.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:48 pm**

swampman wrote:assuming you get that PI gig.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:04 pm**

BigZuck wrote:
swampman wrote:assuming you get that PI gig.

Right. But if you don't get that PI gig, you're screwed with 75k debt and you're screwed with 300k. If all you have on your resume is PI, what legal non-PI job are you realistically going to get that will pay off 75k in debt? Either way, your best option is to give up and become a teacher/cop and get that PAYE/PSLF.

UVA makes it a less risky assumption through their school-funded positions. If you strike out the first time around, you are almost guaranteed a year-long paid PI position. Most people keep working at that PI org after the year runs out, but even if you don't you at least have some marketable skills. If you strike out the first time with Georgetown, you don't have that safety net, and you don't have that years worth of actual legal skills.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:11 pm**

I think 300K debt is sizeably more than 75K. Carrying 75K through life would certainly suck but I don't think it's as life-ruinously bad as 300K.

That's moot though because its highly unlikely that someone would be choosing between these two schools with such a difference in debt.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:10 pm**

swampman wrote:0L here. I was in this situation and picked UVA. I liked the UVA culture a lot more, but career wise:

-UVA offers school-funded positions in PI orgs. Most of these turn into real jobs after the year resulting in essentially no unemployment immediately after graduation. If you can't line something up by graduation, this is a huge safety net -- and maybe even a plan A to get your foot in the door somewhere that can't afford to pay a 1st year.
-UVA has a separate PI career services office, and students seem to be very satisfied with it.
-Georgetown has a larger class size, and more people looking for PI jobs, so I imagine it would be harder to distinguish yourself from your peers.
-UVA has clinics in the areas I want to practice, which I think will make up for fewer externship opportunities.
-UVA recently made it much easier to do a full-time externship in DC or elsewhere. 3L seems to be pretty useless, and this would give you the chance to spend one of those semesters getting full-time experience.

Zuck's objection aside, this does seem like a compelling argument for UVA > GULC. But, dat DC location ...

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:44 pm**

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that Georgetown's LRAP also covers other educational loans (aka undergrad as far as I can tell). I'm in a similar position to OP and with $30k in undergrad debt Georgetown is looking pretty great

Still struggling with the decision though because I know there are cons for going to Georgetown as someone who is KJD...

Endlessly debating pros and cons of the schools I've been accepted to has fully taken over my life at this point

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:49 pm**

What kind of PI are we talking about?

I would 100% choose UVA and not look back.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:24 pm**

OliveBC wrote:I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that Georgetown's LRAP also covers other educational loans (aka undergrad as far as I can tell). I'm in a similar position to OP and with $30k in undergrad debt Georgetown is looking pretty great

Are these government loans? In that case undergrad loans are, in effect, covered by all the LRAPs. If your loans, undergrad or law school, aren't government loans, then none of the new LRAPs will cover them. (This may not apply to HYS).

Under all the LRAPs, you use IBR or PAYE and pay 15% or 10% of your income, respectively, regardless of how much you have in total federal loans, and then all federal loans will be forgiven by Uncle Sam after 10 years of public service work. The school's LRAP reimburses you for those payments. So even though UVA's LRAP only specifically covers IBR/PAYE payments for your law school loans, this in effect covers the payments for your undergrad loans as well.

That said, Georgetown still has a better LRAP as they'll cover your full payments if you're earning up to 75k vs 55k at UVA.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:36 pm**

UVA's LRAP should also cover undergrad loans if you consolidate your law + undergrad. It comes out to being the same payment for the school.

edit> according to Mr. Wednesday, even if you don't consolidate, it comes out to being the same payment for the school. I tend to believe him.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:56 pm**

swampman wrote:0L here. I was in this situation and picked UVA. I liked the UVA culture a lot more, but career wise:

-UVA offers school-funded positions in PI orgs. Most of these turn into real jobs after the year resulting in essentially no unemployment immediately after graduation. If you can't line something up by graduation, this is a huge safety net -- and maybe even a plan A to get your foot in the door somewhere that can't afford to pay a 1st year.

I think this is misleading. UVA has never been a strong PI school. Before they instituted their school-funded positions they were regularly sending around 5% of their graduates into PI jobs (check LST). Now all of a sudden there are over 20% going into "PI jobs" since they are having to hire back tons of their graduates. There is some sketchy evidence that a good number of these school-funded positions turn into jobs post-fellowship, but I haven't seen any evidence that they turn into PI jobs - let alone good PI jobs. In fact, last I saw, UVA had done a report highlighting a couple of good outcomes out of the literal dozens of school grads they hired.

Do you have evidence to support your theory that these fellowships turn into good jobs?

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:59 pm**

Please excuse the ignorance, but why is Georgetown especially bad if you're a K-JD?

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:06 pm**

What is the summer funding situation for UVA and GULC? If you don't have guaranteed funding for PI work for 2 summers, you might be in trouble.

Georgetown does this weird thing for 1Ls (maybe for 2Ls too?) where the CSO insists that you hire their student through the school, and apparently won't let people apply directly. Instead you do everything through the CSO. I find it incredibly irritating. My organization actually stopped recruiting at Gtown because our hiring is done before their internal process is, and it was also a giant pain to follow a separate process for just one school. It honestly is a stupid system and they need to change it.

Does GULC have post-grad funded fellowships? I would not recommend attending a school that does not if you are 100% set on PI.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:11 pm**

SLS_AMG wrote:
Do you have evidence to support your theory that these fellowships turn into good jobs?

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... wships.htm

UVA wrote: The Law School provides ongoing career counseling aimed at securing post-fellowship employment tailored to each graduate’s career objectives. A recent follow-up study of the Class of 2010 found post-fellowship employment information for 35 of the 40 fellows. All 35 are now employed in permanent, full-time positions — 32 as lawyers, two in jobs for which a J.D. was an advantage, and one in a position that did not require a law degree.
...
The Class of 2011's fellows have continued to build on the program's success. Four (including Daner) accepted permanent employment as counsel to U.S. House or Senate committees or members after working on Capitol Hill as fellows. Several other 2011 graduates spent a fellowship year in a prosecutor's or public defender's office, or in public interest organizations such as Section 27, a public interest law center in South Africa — which resulted in permanent legal staff positions.
...
While the majority of fellows remain in government or public interest employment after their fellowships, some move on to jobs in private practice.

No independent survey or detailed statistics, but certainly sounds a lot better than nothing. And, again, even if you do not continue working there, you now have a year of full-time legal PI work under your belt.

Comparing UVA and Georgetown's LST score report also suggests you're much better off at UVA.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:25 pm**

SLS_AMG wrote:I think this is misleading. UVA has never been a strong PI school. Before they instituted their school-funded positions they were regularly sending around 5% of their graduates into PI jobs (check LST). Now all of a sudden there are over 20% going into "PI jobs" since they are having to hire back tons of their graduates.

That's true, because in 2009 there were Biglaw jobs for everyone who wanted one. Now there aren't, so UVA has made a serious and effective effort to place more students into PI, government and clerkships. The school-funded positions (not hiring students back, btw, but placing them in PI organizations across the country) are one aspect of this.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:26 pm**

swampman wrote:
SLS_AMG wrote:I think this is misleading. UVA has never been a strong PI school. Before they instituted their school-funded positions they were regularly sending around 5% of their graduates into PI jobs (check LST). Now all of a sudden there are over 20% going into "PI jobs" since they are having to hire back tons of their graduates.
That's true, because in 2009 there were Biglaw jobs for everyone who wanted one. Now there aren't, so UVA has made a serious and effective effort to place more students into PI, government and clerkships. The school-funded positions (not hiring students back, btw, but placing them in PI organizations across the country) are one aspect of this.

It starting to sound like you're shilling for UVA.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:32 pm**

BigZuck wrote:
It starting to sound like you're shilling for UVA.

Unabashedly.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:45 pm**

are we actually going along with ignoring the CoA? because that sounds downright nutty.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:48 pm**

twenty wrote:UVA's LRAP should also cover undergrad loans if you consolidate your law + undergrad. It comes out to being the same payment for the school.

edit> according to Mr. Wednesday, even if you don't consolidate, it comes out to being the same payment for the school. I tend to believe him.

They're a combination of Federal Direct PLUS loans, Stafford unsubsidized loans and Direct unsubsidized loans. Would those all be covered under IBR programs for any school? If so that would change everything lol

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:57 pm**

OliveBC wrote: They're a combination of Federal Direct PLUS loans, Stafford unsubsidized loans and Direct unsubsidized loans. Would those all be covered under IBR programs for any school? If so that would change everything lol

Yes, they're all covered. Unless you have defaulted on any of them or the PLUS loans were made to your parents.

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