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Does IUB's regional reach stretch to Chicago midlaw? How can I find info on OCI at this school? Thanks!

According to LST 9.8% get jobs in Illinois.

What's your LSAT score? Is a retake possible?

I do have a retake left, but my cycle is just beginning so I don't know if it's necessary yet. Thanks.

flat-fifth wrote:I do have a retake left, but my cycle is just beginning so I don't know if it's necessary yet. Thanks.

I just mean that your target for IL should be Northwestern and Chicago, not IUB. IUB should be way off your radar.

That's unless someone else is paying your tuition.

flat-fifth wrote:Does IUB's regional reach stretch to Chicago midlaw?

No, not reliably.

What is Chicago midlaw and is that something that newly minted lawyers are even able to snag?

BigZuck wrote:What is Chicago midlaw and is that something that newly minted lawyers are even able to snag?

Trying to figure out midlaw. Do people generally mean 50 - 499 attorneys? Or 50 - 99 attorneys?

To me, the real distinction people seem to be trying to make when saying midlaw is a smaller firm that doesn't pay market ($120+) but still does decent work (corporations, municipalities, etc... not shitlaw, divorce, DUI, etc.)

So a 20 attorney firm that does small time divorce/dui (and probably pays 45k) is small law, but a 20 attorney firm that represents school corporations (and probably pays 60k+) is midlaw.

I can't speak to the existence of this in Chicago, but midlaw in this sense is common in Indianapolis, and it seems to be to where someone around the median at IUB can expect to have a shot. Top 10% has a CHANCE at Chicago biglaw, but I get the impression there isn't any place in Chicago for any IUB student outside the top handful of students.

This is presumptive

I am a student at The University of Chicago Law School and my wife recently graduated from IU Maurer, passed the bar in July and then landed a job immediately in Chicago. She networked heavily as a law student and formed a strong blanket of dependable people within a practice area she is interested in. Don't sell yourself short; it may be significantly more difficult to work mid-size in Chi market coming from IU, but the bottom line is if you do well in school and you are actively networking, things aren't as tough as the numbers say. Numbers merely reflect others inability to grind at all of the things they should be grinding at: tests, organizations, networking w/ students, profs, organization leaders, partners/associates at firms, etc. You'll be surprised to see that not all students value these aspect of their law school experience.

PopTorts13 wrote: You'll be surprised to see that not all students value these aspect of their law school experience.

That is quite surprising. Thanks for your input.

PopTorts13 wrote:I am a student at The University of Chicago Law School and my wife recently graduated from IU Maurer, passed the bar in July and then landed a job immediately in Chicago. She networked heavily as a law student and formed a strong blanket of dependable people within a practice area she is interested in. Don't sell yourself short; it may be significantly more difficult to work mid-size in Chi market coming from IU, but the bottom line is if you do well in school and you are actively networking, things aren't as tough as the numbers say. Numbers merely reflect others inability to grind at all of the things they should be grinding at: tests, organizations, networking w/ students, profs, organization leaders, partners/associates at firms, etc. You'll be surprised to see that not all students value these aspect of their law school experience.

How much did she have in loans? What's her salary? Without these, no one really knows what to make of your anecdote.

yossarian71 wrote:

BigZuck wrote:What is Chicago midlaw and is that something that newly minted lawyers are even able to snag?

Trying to figure out midlaw. Do people generally mean 50 - 499 attorneys? Or 50 - 99 attorneys?

To me, the real distinction people seem to be trying to make when saying midlaw is a smaller firm that doesn't pay market ($120+) but still does decent work (corporations, municipalities, etc... not shitlaw, divorce, DUI, etc.)

So a 20 attorney firm that does small time divorce/dui (and probably pays 45k) is small law, but a 20 attorney firm that represents school corporations (and probably pays 60k+) is midlaw.

I can't speak to the existence of this in Chicago, but midlaw in this sense is common in Indianapolis, and it seems to be to where someone around the median at IUB can expect to have a shot. Top 10% has a CHANCE at Chicago biglaw, but I get the impression there isn't any place in Chicago for any IUB student outside the top handful of students.

This is presumptive

That may all be true.

I always got the sense that midlaw is a 9-5 gig that pays about 100K (maybe a little more or less depending on the market). You're not an ambulance chaser, nor do you have to defend low lifes or do any of that messy family law stuff. The work is solidly prestigious but not dripping with prestige. You're willing to pass on working the really high end stuff and getting paid like 60K more a year for saner hours and an overall better pace of life.

I also get the sense that these jobs don't really exist and they sure as he heck don't give them to 25 year old kids who just graduated from law school and don't know the first thing about being a lawyer.

If the OP wants one of these jobs he needs to point to a Chicago firm that offers them. I can't definitively say that midlaw isn't a thing but its something that gets bandied about these parts a lot and it doesn't really conform to any firms I have heard of. At least not firms that hire new grads. It sounds idyllic but also like a pipe dream.

I personally wouldn't go to IUB unless I was 100% ok with doing small law (wills and estates, criminal defense, etc.) in Indiana as a best case scenario. Nice Chicago firm jobs are what NU and UChi were made for.

PopTorts13 wrote:I am a student at The University of Chicago Law School and my wife recently graduated from IU Maurer, passed the bar in July and then landed a job immediately in Chicago. She networked heavily as a law student and formed a strong blanket of dependable people within a practice area she is interested in. Don't sell yourself short; it may be significantly more difficult to work mid-size in Chi market coming from IU, but the bottom line is if you do well in school and you are actively networking, things aren't as tough as the numbers say. Numbers merely reflect others inability to grind at all of the things they should be grinding at: tests, organizations, networking w/ students, profs, organization leaders, partners/associates at firms, etc. You'll be surprised to see that not all students value these aspect of their law school experience.

Oh, so the problem is law students don't work hard enough? Ugh.

You should be ashamed of yourself. Please don't spread this boomer propaganda. Real lives hang in the balance here, we should not be in the business of leading people astray or giving them false hope.

PopTorts13 wrote:I am a student at The University of Chicago Law School and my wife recently graduated from IU Maurer, passed the bar in July and then landed a job immediately in Chicago. She networked heavily as a law student and formed a strong blanket of dependable people within a practice area she is interested in. Don't sell yourself short; it may be significantly more difficult to work mid-size in Chi market coming from IU, but the bottom line is if you do well in school and you are actively networking, things aren't as tough as the numbers say. Numbers merely reflect others inability to grind at all of the things they should be grinding at: tests, organizations, networking w/ students, profs, organization leaders, partners/associates at firms, etc. You'll be surprised to see that not all students value these aspect of their law school experience.

Just work hard and you can achieve the American dream! The reason there are tens of thousands of newly underemployed 4Ls every year is that they just don't "grind" hard enough. Thanks for clearing that up for everyone.

Edit - Zuck beat me to it.

No false hope here guys... just curiosity. I interview with NU next week.

papercut wrote:

PopTorts13 wrote:I am a student at The University of Chicago Law School and my wife recently graduated from IU Maurer, passed the bar in July and then landed a job immediately in Chicago. She networked heavily as a law student and formed a strong blanket of dependable people within a practice area she is interested in. Don't sell yourself short; it may be significantly more difficult to work mid-size in Chi market coming from IU, but the bottom line is if you do well in school and you are actively networking, things aren't as tough as the numbers say. Numbers merely reflect others inability to grind at all of the things they should be grinding at: tests, organizations, networking w/ students, profs, organization leaders, partners/associates at firms, etc. You'll be surprised to see that not all students value these aspect of their law school experience.

How much did she have in loans? What's her salary? Without these, no one really knows what to make of your anecdote.

She has $150,000 in loans and she makes $160,000, plus bonus. As for the people ridiculing my perspective; the reality is that law school is challenging on multiple levels and the vast majority of people aren't putting in the efforts that they need to. There is a reason why schools are ranked based on GPA and LSAT among other statistics. GPA and LSAT reflect aptitude as well as ability to work hard. Look at the top schools and look at their employment rates. This doesn't mean that people who have lower numbers aren't intelligent or don't know how to work extremely hard, but it certainly means they will have a more difficult path because they are surrounded by others that simply don't know what it means to put in the hard work or are simply intelligent in their own merits... I realize there are circumstances and excuses for everyone, but this is the norm.

PopTorts13 wrote:

papercut wrote:

PopTorts13 wrote:I am a student at The University of Chicago Law School and my wife recently graduated from IU Maurer, passed the bar in July and then landed a job immediately in Chicago. She networked heavily as a law student and formed a strong blanket of dependable people within a practice area she is interested in. Don't sell yourself short; it may be significantly more difficult to work mid-size in Chi market coming from IU, but the bottom line is if you do well in school and you are actively networking, things aren't as tough as the numbers say. Numbers merely reflect others inability to grind at all of the things they should be grinding at: tests, organizations, networking w/ students, profs, organization leaders, partners/associates at firms, etc. You'll be surprised to see that not all students value these aspect of their law school experience.

How much did she have in loans? What's her salary? Without these, no one really knows what to make of your anecdote.

She has $150,000 in loans and she makes $160,000, plus bonus. As for the people ridiculing my perspective; the reality is that law school is challenging on multiple levels and the vast majority of people aren't putting in the efforts that they need to. There is a reason why schools are ranked based on GPA and LSAT among other statistics. GPA and LSAT reflect aptitude as well as ability to work hard. Look at the top schools and look at their employment rates. This doesn't mean that people who have lower numbers aren't intelligent or don't know how to work extremely hard, but it certainly means they will have a more difficult path because they are surrounded by others that simply don't know what it means to put in the hard work or are simply intelligent in their own merits... I realize there are circumstances and excuses for everyone, but this is the norm.

Despite TLS and my instinct not to, I want to believe this man
I want to believe that despite my past, hard work is what really gains access and the correlation between GPA, LSAT, rankings, and employment is hard work.

I want to believe this.

But reasonably, it's more nuanced. Hard work, luck, privilege, and an over saturated market are all factors.

But... I do think we undersell hard work on TLS. Might we be undervaluing hard work. Even at T1 schools. Especially at T1 schools? What is the r value of hard work? Could it be calculated? (Even if it is very small)

Edited in the light of sobriety.

yossarian71 wrote:
Trying to figure out midlaw. Do people generally mean 50 - 499 attorneys? Or 50 - 99 attorneys?

I also genuinely meant this question. What is the more common definition?

If everyone worked exactly as hard as this dude and his IU wife, the legal job numbers would be precisely the same. They might be distributed differently.

Wtf? How is his position even remotely plausible as an argument? Pluck in law school doesn't impact structural/secular economic trends. Unless you think everybody bootstrapping like Horatio Alger on exams or networking events would magically restructure the economy somehow?

Garbage.

yossarian71 wrote:

yossarian71 wrote:
Trying to figure out midlaw. Do people generally mean 50 - 499 attorneys? Or 50 - 99 attorneys?

I also genuinely meant this question. What is the more common definition?

I believe the latter.

UPenn gives its salary data by law firm size. Here are the medians by size:

51 - 100 105k
101-250 160k
251-500 135k
500+ 160k

papercut wrote:

yossarian71 wrote:

yossarian71 wrote:
Trying to figure out midlaw. Do people generally mean 50 - 499 attorneys? Or 50 - 99 attorneys?

I also genuinely meant this question. What is the more common definition?

I believe the latter.

UPenn gives it's salary data by law firm size. Here are the medians by size:

51 - 100 105k
101-250 160k
251-500 135k
500+ 160k

Super useful info. thanks so much!

BigZuck wrote:

PopTorts13 wrote:I am a student at The University of Chicago Law School and my wife recently graduated from IU Maurer, passed the bar in July and then landed a job immediately in Chicago. She networked heavily as a law student and formed a strong blanket of dependable people within a practice area she is interested in. Don't sell yourself short; it may be significantly more difficult to work mid-size in Chi market coming from IU, but the bottom line is if you do well in school and you are actively networking, things aren't as tough as the numbers say. Numbers merely reflect others inability to grind at all of the things they should be grinding at: tests, organizations, networking w/ students, profs, organization leaders, partners/associates at firms, etc. You'll be surprised to see that not all students value these aspect of their law school experience.

Oh, so the problem is law students don't work hard enough? Ugh.

You should be ashamed of yourself. Please don't spread this boomer propaganda. Real lives hang in the balance here, we should not be in the business of leading people astray or giving them false hope.

There goes Mr. Negativity himself BIGZUCK

Strongfaithgirl wrote:
There goes Mr. Negativity himself BIGZUCK

Grow up. Stop throwing tantrums because people gave you realistic advice for the first time instead of just telling you to believe in yourself and chase your dreams or whatever.

Strongfaithgirl wrote:

BigZuck wrote:

PopTorts13 wrote:I am a student at The University of Chicago Law School and my wife recently graduated from IU Maurer, passed the bar in July and then landed a job immediately in Chicago. She networked heavily as a law student and formed a strong blanket of dependable people within a practice area she is interested in. Don't sell yourself short; it may be significantly more difficult to work mid-size in Chi market coming from IU, but the bottom line is if you do well in school and you are actively networking, things aren't as tough as the numbers say. Numbers merely reflect others inability to grind at all of the things they should be grinding at: tests, organizations, networking w/ students, profs, organization leaders, partners/associates at firms, etc. You'll be surprised to see that not all students value these aspect of their law school experience.

Oh, so the problem is law students don't work hard enough? Ugh.

You should be ashamed of yourself. Please don't spread this boomer propaganda. Real lives hang in the balance here, we should not be in the business of leading people astray or giving them false hope.

There goes Mr. Negativity himself BIGZUCK

This isn't negativity, it's reality. ~54% of graduates get jobs as full time, long term, bar passage required lawyers, and not nearly all of those are acceptable outcomes based on the amount of debt students take, on average, to get that fancy JD. The point isn't that you CAN'T be successful from any given situation, but just that it's irrational to assume you'll ever get anything better than the median outcome from a given school. If the median outcome is a $40k small law job, you should assume that's what you're likely to get. He's not saying you'll definitely be unemployed. But you are likely to take out $100k+ (up to $250k-ish) for the privilege of getting that $40k job. How is it "being negative" to steer people away from this delusional line of thinking where this is a good idea?

ITT: Anyone who doesn't believe in the vale ideology that grades/employment is all about luck is spreading boomer propaganda.

Also anyone who does well is totally a "special snowflake"

RodneyRuxin wrote:ITT: Anyone who doesn't believe in the vale ideology that grades/employment is all about luck is spreading boomer propaganda.

I would disagree that it's ALL about luck. Luck inevitably plays a large part of it, but how you work, hustle, your background, previous work experience, and how well you interview will play SOME part in finding employment. Those things alone are not enough, but it would be equally delusional to believe that no one has any control over their personal success.

The best thing any person can do is maximize their chances for the employment outcome they desire (read: get into best school possible for that outcome), while minimizing cost, work your butt off (like most everyone will) and pray that what you've done and how you've done it is enough to get the outcome you want.