Top Law Schools

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These threads are always interesting, but I think we've had enough....

What goals do you have? What do you want to do professionally?

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I think consensus would be you want a full-ride at CCN to make a strong case for it (especially since a lot of HYS people get significant $ and the COA is lower, at least lower than CLS and NYU). Even if you got 75K from CLS, you'd still be looking at paying like 180K out of pocket.

H is different from YS for New York Biglaw, I think. I think you can argue that for most firms in NY Harvard is similar to NYU or CLS; but a Yale or Stanford degree is enough of a rarity even at the mega firms that it gives you a different kind of boost. As a 2L at CLS, looking back I would have taken CLS with a full ride over H but not S or Y.

I think a significant number of people do turn down CLS full rides for Harvard, and that's not an indefensible choice. Looking just at Biglaw, I get the feeling OCI success at Harvard is slightly higher, and there is also a significant advantage in markets outside of NY.

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Columbia and Harvard place equally in new york for large firms, but Harvard has an edge in the rest of the country/world. The advantage to Stanford is not so much in their placement power, but in their lower number of grads and reduced anxiety over grades (with Y as a more exteme version of this), whereas Harvard, despite recent attempts to reform the grading structure, remains markedly competitive for latin honors, ect.

If we arent talking about large nyc firms then obviously the variables change

bowser wrote:H is different from YS for New York Biglaw, I think. I think you can argue that for most firms in NY Harvard is similar to NYU or CLS; but a Yale or Stanford degree is enough of a rarity even at the mega firms that it gives you a different kind of boost. As a 2L at CLS, looking back I would have taken CLS with a full ride over H but not S or Y.

I think there's a lot of truth in this.

TakeABow94 wrote:goal is just nyc biglaw. the dream is V5 partner but the more likely route is V10/15/w.e. -> partner at lower-ranked firm or F500 GC, or a non-law position like MBB/PE (less likely).

Both Y and S produce lists that show where there students spend their 2L summers. If you look at the Y list, and almost everyone last year in NY biglaw was at a V15. The only exceptions were people who probably had special reasons for choosing firms outside of that - for example, magic circle firms, selective boutiques.

And as other people have pointed out, NY biglaw is almost guaranteed at Y or S - even with solid Ps. I Know people with solid Ps who got multiple V15 offers. So: bottom 10% at Y or S is basically getting the same thing as top 10% at CCN.

If your goal is NYC biglaw, CCN with a full ride or anything close is almost certainly the right choice. You would be at one of the very top schools in the exact market you want to place in, with little to no debt, with the ability to network with NYC lawyers constantly, etc.

I have a bunch of friends that went to H. Among those who wanted to work for firms, its not like the H folks were getting better firms than my NYU friends. If I told you 5 firms that my NYU friends hit, and 5 firms that my H friends hit, you wouldn't know which group is which, because the schools largely place into the top NYC firms at similar rates. Firm hiring is literally the one area where HYS genuinely doesn't have much of an edge over CLS and NYU, especially if you are talking NYC, and not some place like DC or Cali.

I would love some input by law students and grads who were in this position.

jingosaur wrote:I would love some input by law students and grads who were in this position.

I didn't have the choice, but I do have over 250k in debt and I'm a big lolyer. Take the fucking money. The people from TTT who took the money STYLE all my ass.

You don't wanna be working in NYC biglaw and living with roommates, living on the floor and eating one dollar pizza for dinner.

Desert Fox wrote:

jingosaur wrote:I would love some input by law students and grads who were in this position.

I didn't have the choice, but I do have over 250k in debt and I'm a big lolyer. Take the fucking money. The people from TTT who took the money STYLE all my ass.

You don't wanna be working in NYC biglaw and living with roommates, living on the floor and eating one dollar pizza for dinner.

CCN with $$$ is an amazing spot to be in. I think the only reason to even consider HYS is if you have academia in mind.

Long term, I want to transition to a legal or executive job in high finance, so I'm leaning more towards the HYS side right now just because those firms care a lot about prestige and having the right network is really important. My parents are poor by HYS students' parents standards so I'm just hoping I get a lot of financial aid. I also doubt I'm getting a full ride from any of CCN because my GPA is too low.

And thanks for the input DF.

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

jingosaur wrote:I would love some input by law students and grads who were in this position.

I didn't have the choice, but I do have over 250k in debt and I'm a big lolyer. Take the fucking money. The people from TTT who took the money STYLE all my ass.

You don't wanna be working in NYC biglaw and living with roommates, living on the floor and eating one dollar pizza for dinner.

CCN with $$$ is an amazing spot to be in. I think the only reason to even consider HYS is if you have academia in mind.

And only if you are doing academia no matter what. Because academia basically makes you burn any bridges to real practice before you get hired. So unless you are 110% dedicated to academia, it shouldn't even be a factor in hiring. Not even a tiebreaker.

Take the money.

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TakeABow94 wrote:

jingosaur wrote:Long term, I want to transition to a legal or executive job in high finance, so I'm leaning more towards the HYS side right now just because those firms care a lot about prestige and having the right network is really important. My parents are poor by HYS students' parents standards so I'm just hoping I get a lot of financial aid. I also doubt I'm getting a full ride from any of CCN because my GPA is too low.

And thanks for the input DF.

Jingo: I think I might have the same basic plan, but [disclaimer: K-JD who hasn't done extensive research] a lot of people say your first job matters more than your alma mater for determining future opportunities. if both options land you @ eg DPW and you get to work with clients you eventually want to transition into, wouldn't the fact that you did work for them @ DPW be more of a factor? I'm playing the devil's advocate because I'm thinking the same thing you are re prestige & network w/ hbs/gsb etc

This is what I'm wondering too. I don't know if this is the exception to the rule. Look on any major PE sight and all of the JDs are from YHS. I'm still not sure whether the MBA portion is necessary as long as there's a business law focus in law school. I'm going to ask around about that soon.

Desert Fox wrote:

jingosaur wrote:I would love some input by law students and grads who were in this position.

I didn't have the choice, but I do have over 250k in debt and I'm a big lolyer. Take the fucking money. The people from TTT who took the money STYLE all my ass.

You don't wanna be working in NYC biglaw and living with roommates, living on the floor and eating one dollar pizza for dinner.

+1, 2L at CCN with an SA. Would take full ride CCN over YHS any day. People are getting big law SAs from CCN at 75-80%+ clips.

Even half off tuition CCN leaves you in $150k debt, which can be paid off in ~3 years if you pay down debt fairly aggressively. Though this point is obviously irrelevant if you get a good chunk of aid from YHS.

HYS without aid is only flame in some circumstances.

Actively seeking to work in NYC is nearly always flame.

TakeABow94 wrote:yea I know hys for academia/clerkships, otherwise they're about the same for biglaw. but i hadn't thought about things like ROR or EV or, if the most likely outcome @ either category is median, then hys loses most of its advantage.

This is not exactly true, but I agree with the general statement. Median at HYS can get you V5-V10 and probably a non-SDNY/DDC/ND Cal district clerkship. I don't think those are attainable at median from CCN, but I could be wrong.

Source: HLS 2L. Turned down near full rides at two of CCN.

My general opinion is that HYS is worth it if you want academia, fed gov, or prestigious PI work, or care about a niche biglaw market. If you just want any biglaw gig in NY/Chicago/DC, then CCN with a full ride is definitely the way to go.

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:HYS without aid is only flame in some circumstances.

Actively seeking to work in NYC is nearly always flame.

What?

californiauser wrote:

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:HYS without aid is only flame in some circumstances.

Actively seeking to work in NYC is nearly always flame.

What?

It's just weird when people whose number one concern is the amount of debt they have are dead-set on working in the most expensive city in the country. Like no-aid HYS, there are reasons to do it, but they are very particular and don't usually apply to the typical student.