Top Law Schools

A little FYI: I am an applicant in this years cycle. So far I have been accepted to Duke, GULC, and UT. I want to hear some of the older members views on if there will be a change in next years TLS (USNews) T14, and if so, who is falling who is dropping. Also: If the T14 will not change, will their be any internal shifts within the group?

Just wanted this information to sort of help me get a clearer picture on where I want to go, any thoughts appreciated. Thanks.

Not that it matters but... the only thing I'm pretty confident in is that Penn will either tie with or pass NYU

Also you shouldn't be basing your decision on rankings

Just wanted this information to sort of help me get a clearer picture on where I want to go

Ignore USNWR

Use http://www.lawschooltransparency.com

dj_roomba wrote:Not that it matters but... the only thing I'm pretty confident in is that Penn will either tie with or pass NYU

Also you shouldn't be basing your decision on rankings

Agreed with not basing decision on meaningless rankings. I'd definitely pick Penn over NYU. Idk if anything will actually change, but I think Michigan should fall a few spots and Cornell should move up if we are basing rankings on employment.

Do not, for the love of god, choose a school based on (speculation about) which school will be where in the T14. Choose the school that will give you the best chance of getting the job you want in the location you want for the least amount of money.

Lincoln wrote:Do not, for the love of god, choose a school based on (speculation about) which school will be where in the T14. Choose the school that will give you the best chance of getting the job you want in the location you want for the least amount of money.

Yeah I've lurked around the forums enough to know that my ultimate decision won't be based off a superficial T14 calculus, when my decision time comes I will specifically lay out my situation and beg for advice, this is more just to gain knowledge on why you all think certain schools or improving or falling and why.

yesmanyesman wrote:

Lincoln wrote:Do not, for the love of god, choose a school based on (speculation about) which school will be where in the T14. Choose the school that will give you the best chance of getting the job you want in the location you want for the least amount of money.

Yeah I've lurked around the forums enough to know that my ultimate decision won't be based off a superficial T14 calculus, when my decision time comes I will specifically lay out my situation and beg for advice, this is more just to gain knowledge on why you all think certain schools or improving or falling and why.

Doesn't matter. How could a school improve or decline in a significant way on a year to year basis?

Your question only matters for the GULC haters or the UT lovers (or if you're both, like me). It might matter for the CCNPtards. It doesn't (and shouldn't) matter for anyone else and it doesn't actually matter at all.

If you have prestige concerns pick an Ivy (they are bullet proof). Everyone I know at P clinched their SA with an offer…their ’13 stats should prove to be T-6 worthy (plus they are #5 in ATL).

Do not know who is falling but the city of Detroit bankruptcy might prove especially problematic for Mich.

Summerz wrote:If you have prestige concerns pick an Ivy (they are bullet proof). Everyone I know at P clinched their SA with an offer…their ’13 stats should prove to be T-6 worthy (plus they are #5 in ATL).

Do not know who is falling but the city of Detroit bankruptcy might prove especially problematic for Mich.

Not many Michigan grads stay in Michigan. I doubt Detroit's problems (which aren't anything new) will have a significantly negative impact on U of M.

Summerz wrote:If you have prestige concerns pick an Ivy (they are bullet proof). Everyone I know at P clinched their SA with an offer…their ’13 stats should prove to be T-6 worthy (plus they are #5 in ATL).

Do not know who is falling but the city of Detroit bankruptcy might prove especially problematic for Mich.

Princeton is indeed one of the best law schools.

Summerz wrote:If you have prestige concerns pick an Ivy (they are bullet proof). Everyone I know at P clinched their SA with an offer…their ’13 stats should prove to be T-6 worthy (plus they are #5 in ATL).

Do not know who is falling but the city of Detroit bankruptcy might prove especially problematic for Mich.

Lol I cant question your anecdotal sources, but consensus is actually that Penn had a slightly weaker OCI than last year.

Still, you're right, its placement is definitely "T6".

Avoid ATL anything (except for comic value) like the plague.

Summerz wrote:Do not know who is falling but the city of Detroit bankruptcy might prove especially problematic for Mich.

180. There is a strong historical basis for this line of reasoning. When Blagoyvich got indicted, droves of employers passed on Chicago's OCI; when Lehman folded, droves of employers ignored NYU and Columbia; the weak New Haven economy has long held Yale back in the USN rankings, just like the small Boston legal market has kept Harvard Law from becoming a major player. Don't believe me? Look at how many Michigan graduates depend on the (historically booming) Detroit legal market for employment - Michigan only lags behind Wayne and Michigan State in the number of grads they place in Detroit. There's no doubt the Detroit bankruptcy will force Michigan out of the USN top-ten for the first time in the school's history.

bruinfan10 wrote:

Summerz wrote:Do not know who is falling but the city of Detroit bankruptcy might prove especially problematic for Mich.

180. There is a strong historical basis for this line of reasoning. When Blagoyvich got indicted, droves of employers bailed on Chicago's OCI; when Lehman folded, droves of employers left NYU and Columbia; the weak New Haven economy has long held Yale back in the USN rankings. Don't believe me? Look at how many Michigan graduates depend on the (historically booming) Detroit legal market for employment - Michigan only lags behind Wayne and Michigan State in the number of grads they place in Detroit. There's no doubt the Detroit bankruptcy will force Michigan out of the USN top ten for the first time in the school's history.

Lol solid.

Except technically, lehman failing basically did precipitate a series of catastrophic financial events that would deplete the nyc legal market and hit almost every T14, but maybe NYU particularly badly, for the following few years (and maybe even foreseeable future)

jbagelboy wrote:Lol :) solid. Except technically, lehman failing basically did precipitate a series of catastrophic financial events that would deplete the nyc legal market and hit almost every T14, but maybe NYU particularly badly, for the following few years (and maybe even foreseeable future)

Haha, true, but that doesn't read quite as well. ;)

bruinfan10 wrote:

Summerz wrote:Do not know who is falling but the city of Detroit bankruptcy might prove especially problematic for Mich.

180. There is a strong historical basis for this line of reasoning. When Blagoyvich got indicted, droves of employers passed on Chicago's OCI; when Lehman folded, droves of employers ignored NYU and Columbia; the weak New Haven economy has long held Yale back in the USN rankings, just like the small Boston legal market has kept Harvard Law from becoming a major player. Don't believe me? Look at how many Michigan graduates depend on the (historically booming) Detroit legal market for employment - Michigan only lags behind Wayne and Michigan State in the number of grads they place in Detroit. There's no doubt the Detroit bankruptcy will force Michigan out of the USN top-ten for the first time in the school's history.

I appreciate and understand the sentiment, but 10% of UM grads work in Michigan. What percent of this 10% is in Detroit? If it's 6-9%, that's not a negligible #.

HYSChi you heard it here first

californiauser wrote:I appreciate and understand the sentiment, but 10% of UM grads work in Michigan. What percent of this 10% is in Detroit? If it's 6-9%, that's not a negligible #.

Yeah, some Michigan natives occasionally stay in-state, but not normally if they're interested in BigLaw. It's actually sometimes harder for Mich grads to get employed over Wayne grads in Detroit because employers assume they'll leave for greener pastures. Some of them have family gigs, some of them want to do criminal work in their hometown, etc. But the idea that Michigan depends on the Detroit legal market like Chicago/NYU/Columbia rely on their home bases is laughable, even for a particularly benighted 0L.

I just checked LST and Mich is definitely tumbling down the hill. If it isn’t moderately because of Detroit…. then what is it?

Summerz wrote:I just checked LST and Mich is definitely tumbling down the hill. If it isn’t moderately because of Detroit…. then what is it?

Tumbling since when? There was a recession a few years ago...

Detroit's situation has not substantively changed in the last few years in a way that would impact Michigan grads.

On Michigan’s behalf at least they’re not propping up their employment score with school-funded-work as UVA does. Mich is 3.1% versus 15.1% for UVA. I have no idea how to evaluate public service, Mich has 16% placement versus a typical 3% (ala Penn, Stanford, NW, etc.) Why pay T-14 bucks to get public service work? Maybe there is a great reason, just not sure what.

..

Summerz wrote:On Michigan’s behalf at least they’re not propping up their employment score with school-funded-work as UVA does. Mich is 3.1% versus 15.1% for UVA. I have no idea how to evaluate public service, Mich has 16% placement versus a typical 3% (ala Penn, Stanford, NW, etc.) Why pay T-14 bucks to get public service work? Maybe there is a great reason, just not sure what.

There are plenty of reasons to go T14 for public service. One of them is that most of the T14 have good LRAP programs, so you don't actually end up paying T14 money...or at all, even.

Lincoln wrote:Do not, for the love of god, choose a school based on (speculation about) which school will be where in the T14. Choose the school that will give you the best chance of getting the job you want in the location you want for the least amount of money. Or HYS if you get in.

Fixed

midwest17 wrote:

Summerz wrote:On Michigan’s behalf at least they’re not propping up their employment score with school-funded-work as UVA does. Mich is 3.1% versus 15.1% for UVA. I have no idea how to evaluate public service, Mich has 16% placement versus a typical 3% (ala Penn, Stanford, NW, etc.) Why pay T-14 bucks to get public service work? Maybe there is a great reason, just not sure what.

There are plenty of reasons to go T14 for public service. One of them is that most of the T14 have good LRAP programs, so you don't actually end up paying T14 money...or at all, even.

Michigan has a killer LRAP.... so if you're a public service type your rankings should be HYS-NYU-Mich and there really isn't a lot of debate to that.

dsn32 wrote:Michigan has a killer LRAP.... so if you're a public service type your rankings should be HYS-NYU-Mich and there really isn't a lot of debate to that.

I most certainly protest. Michigan's LRAP is definitely below average for T14.

That said, Michigan's ability to place grads in PI is pretty solid.

In the spirit of the thread, however, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Penn tied with NYU for 6. Penn's been cleaning up these last two cycles and NYU has too many PI hippies that screw up LST data for the actual placement potential for the school. If Cornell and Michigan can't figure out what they're going to do about bleeding medians, I wouldn't be surprised to see them drop/another school jump up and tie with them.

Also, Stanford for 3rd. :\