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Hey Guys,

UVA may be the best school I get into but I probably won't be receiving any money from them. Is it worth sticker? My numbers are 166 3.94 (no retakes left) My goals: I want Boston big law. I have extensive Boston ties, grew up/went to undergrad there. Given that I would probably get some money at BU/BC, is UVA worth it for a better chance at big law? Any idea how much deeper Boston firms would go into the UVA class.

Thanks!

Probably yes, especially since going to NYC and then to Boston would also be a back-up possibility. Depends on how much from BC/BU

If you have Boston ties, there's no reason to think you'd have a worse shot than BU/BC students at Boston biglaw (and probably a much better shot), and you have more fallback options. With your numbers, you defy should retake, but personally I'd go to any T14 that gave me money over UVA sticker. I'd be very hesitant about BU/BC for any price, but if you get a full-scholarship and working is Boston is more important to you than working in biglaw, I'd consider it (and then still probably reject it unless I was only facing sticker at T14s).

If you want: Boston biglaw > any biglaw > non-biglaw in Boston, ED to UVA.

If you want: Boston biglaw > non-biglaw in Boston > any biglaw, ED to BU for the full ride.

That said, you really should sit out this cycle and potentially next cycle and retake.

Thanks for the responses so far. I agree retake, but I was under the impression that you could not take more than three times?

There is one more thing that I should mention:

I am fortunate to have parents that are willing and able to pay for school, so I will actually not incur debt. That being said I don't want to take advantage of the situation and have them pay sticker if I can get money...

Sticker is too much money anywhere but a very few schools. I would take BU/BC w/$$$ - or look to see if you get money elsewhere. Given how crazy low admissions stats are now, you may be able to pull $ from somewhere like Cornell.

Having a full debt load in biglaw is not fun. Yes, you make enough to pay your loans, but working long hours and really not making that much for a few years is soul crushing.

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persia1921 wrote:Thanks for the responses so far. I agree retake, but I was under the impression that you could not take more than three times?

There is one more thing that I should mention:

I am fortunate to have parents that are willing and able to pay for school, so I will actually not incur debt. That being said I don't want to take advantage of the situation and have them pay sticker if I can get money...

Given this information, UVA.

scotth724 wrote:

persia1921 wrote:Thanks for the responses so far. I agree retake, but I was under the impression that you could not take more than three times?

There is one more thing that I should mention:

I am fortunate to have parents that are willing and able to pay for school, so I will actually not incur debt. That being said I don't want to take advantage of the situation and have them pay sticker if I can get money...

Given this information, UVA.

Oh yea, didn't see this. Go to UVA. Fantastic school for Boston.

Blindmelon wrote:

scotth724 wrote:

persia1921 wrote:Thanks for the responses so far. I agree retake, but I was under the impression that you could not take more than three times?

There is one more thing that I should mention:

I am fortunate to have parents that are willing and able to pay for school, so I will actually not incur debt. That being said I don't want to take advantage of the situation and have them pay sticker if I can get money...

Given this information, UVA.

Oh yea, didn't see this. Go to UVA. Fantastic school for Boston.

Yeah, but wouldn't it be better to get a bigger scholarship and keep some of that money for later, if your parents were insistent on using it on you?

I get the problem though, which is that you've done the hard work with the retakes, so it's not like you didn't try to cheapen the load they'd be paying for a top school. Maybe in your case then, UVA at sticker is a reasonable choice. Without the contribution from parents, BU full ride would probably make the most sense.

Otunga wrote: Yeah, but wouldn't it be better to get a bigger scholarship and keep some of that money for later, if your parents were insistent on using it on you?

I get the problem though, which is that you've done the hard work with the retakes, so it's not like you didn't try to cheapen the load they'd be paying for a top school. Maybe in your case then, UVA at sticker is a reasonable choice. Without the contribution from parents, BU full ride would probably make the most sense.

Keep some of the money for later? If OP ends up getting a scholly, it's not like OP's parents are necessarily just going to give OP what they would have given him/her for law school. UVA at sticker when your parents are paying is the only reasonable choice in this scenario. BU is a great school, but its biglaw placement pales in comparison, and in this situation the full scholarship isn't that enticing.

scotth724 wrote:

Otunga wrote: Yeah, but wouldn't it be better to get a bigger scholarship and keep some of that money for later, if your parents were insistent on using it on you?

I get the problem though, which is that you've done the hard work with the retakes, so it's not like you didn't try to cheapen the load they'd be paying for a top school. Maybe in your case then, UVA at sticker is a reasonable choice. Without the contribution from parents, BU full ride would probably make the most sense.

Keep some of the money for later? If OP ends up getting a scholly, it's not like OP's parents are necessarily just going to give OP what they would have given him/her for law school. UVA at sticker when your parents are paying is the only reasonable choice in this scenario. BU is a great school, but its biglaw placement pales in comparison, and in this situation the full scholarship isn't that enticing.

Right. I was assuming there was a chance of that. I was just thinking that if they wanted to get him that money either way, then there's an incentive for the BU full ride. Even still, though, essentially free UVA makes sense due to better prospects, where he can earn that extra money anyway.

Title is deceptive . You'll graduate debt free, not sticker. Go to the best school you get in to where money is no issue

You're going to have a slightly higher margin for error at UVA. You'll want to be top 40% to be in good shape in Boston from UVA (i'm there). I would imagine that at BU/BC you'll have to be in the top 20%. That's too scary for me.

jacksonmead wrote:You're going to have a slightly higher margin for error at UVA. You'll want to be top 40% to be in good shape in Boston from UVA (i'm there). I would imagine that at BU/BC you'll have to be in the top 20%. That's too scary for me.

I agree that top 20% is a bit scary. What would you say about somebody wanting Boston at Penn (slightly higher than UVA) or Cornell (lower than UVA)? In general, does the requisite class rank correlate with the rank of the school?

I can't really speak for Penn but I would assume it would be similar to UVA. It seems most Boston firms consider the two schools peers for all intesive purposes (someone correct me if I'm wrong here). There do seem to be more SA's from UVA than Penn in Boston, but that's most likely a result of self selection. I'm not really sure about Cornell.

I've also heard that ties are especially important for Boston, and that some firms seem to be more forgiving of grades if you have solid ties (again someone correct me if I'm wrong here).

I am fortunate to have parents that are willing and able to pay for school, so I will actually not incur debt.

That is a huge deal. Pay your parents back over the course of 2-3 years in biglaw. Go to UVA.

twentypercentmore wrote:

I am fortunate to have parents that are willing and able to pay for school, so I will actually not incur debt.

That is a huge deal. Pay your parents back over the course of 2-3 years in biglaw. Go to UVA.

Don't do this unless they are asking for it which they are not likely doing. Paying for school for a child is a huge benefit to those whose parents can afford it, but it can also be part of smart estate planning for the parents. Direct tuition payments are excluded for gift and estate tax purposes and I'm pretty sure need not even have an informational return filed for exceeding the $14,000 annual gift exclusion.

BTW, if your parents are also willing and able to pay for your other expenses, and those are anticipated to exceed $28,000/year -- or $14,000 if the support is coming only from one non-married parent -- you might ask the school to make any scholarship money it offers you into a housing stipend instead. Direct tuition payments qualify for the tuition exclusion but other costs of attending school such as room, board, books, etc. do not, thus your parents will seek to fit those under the annual gift exclusion of $14,000 per individual.

If you feel the need to pay them back, do so with love and affection and by ensuring they have quality in-home care either in their home or yours when they are too old or sick to take care of themselves, rather than putting them in a nursing home.

BVest, if you "lend money" (in the form of a loan) for tuition to your child and your child repays the loan, there's no tax hit to either party, right?

Even if the child doesn't repay the "loan" and the parent forgives the loan in whole, almost all of the taxable amount would presumably still be a tuition payment and thus excluded... I'd imagine?

twentypercentmore wrote:BVest, if you "lend money" (in the form of a loan) for tuition to your child and your child repays the loan, there's no tax hit to either party, right?

Even if the child doesn't repay the "loan" and the parent forgives the loan in whole, almost all of the taxable amount would presumably still be a tuition payment and thus excluded... I'd imagine?

If it's a loan, there's no tax hit at either the time of the loan or the time of repayment (assuming the discount on interest -- which would be considered a gift given the relationship -- doesn't bring the gift tax into play, which it could, at least for informational returns), but there may be a tax hit down the road when this same money is later left to the child as part of the estate. The point is that parents often use higher education as a way to gift property to their children without triggering any gift tax down the road.

As for the second question, as long as the parents paid the tuition directly without any intention of being repaid, then yes, the tuition payments would still be excluded, but repayment would itself be a gratuitous gift, requiring at least informational returns if in excess of the annual exclusion. And as noted above, if there was intent that they be repaid, then you may trigger the gift tax in relation to the imputed interest.

Dammit. Then yeah, I guess you're right -- getting tuition directly from a parent with the expectation of not monetarily paying it back probably makes the most sense.

OP, if you can go to a T14 without debt then you'd be in a terrific position, though I understand your dilemma. I'm very interested in the topic since I'm also a splitter who's targeting Boston. I saw a thread about this once and people were touting UVA/Cornell, but it was pretty anecdotal. I wish there was a well researched list somewhere. I'll post if I find anything.

In any case, best of luck with your cycle. I think with that GPA you'll end up with some good options, especially since applications are down. Apply broadly and as early as possible without sacrificing the quality of your application.

Thanks for all of the responses! Kemosabe please let me know if you come across any info and good luck to you as well!

jbagelboy wrote:Title is deceptive . You'll graduate debt free, not sticker. Go to the best school you get in to where money is no issue

I think this is a pretty fucked up way of viewing things. Just because one's parents offer to help with their education costs doesn't mean that one should necessarily abuse this resource. If you can save your parents $100k+, why the hell wouldn't you? Chances are that your parents worked pretty damn hard to make that much.

HYSenberg wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:Title is deceptive . You'll graduate debt free, not sticker. Go to the best school you get in to where money is no issue

I think this is a pretty fucked up way of viewing things. Just because one's parents offer to help with their education costs doesn't mean that one should necessarily abuse this resource. If you can save your parents $100k+, why the hell wouldn't you? Chances are that your parents worked pretty damn hard to make that much.

I agree. Plus boston biglaw is a small and competitive market. No guarantee you will end up there. You need to consider that you won't end up in Boston. Would you do NYC first, or is being in Boston more important?

Also consider that even getting NYC is competitive, the market is just much larger.

What if you don't get biglaw at all?