Top Law Schools

I need to decide which school to ED to, UVA or UPenn.

I have a 169 LSAT and 3.42 LSDAS GPA.

So as of now, unless I retake in Dec. and do better, Columbia, NYU, and Chicago are not realistic.

So my target schools are Michigan, Duke, UVA, and UPenn.

UVA, Michigan, and Duke have very similar employment statistics. Especially with Michigan reducing their class size down to around 315 and UVA reducing their class size to 335, I anticipate further parity between these schools. Of those three school, it's no contest, UVA is my favorite, I have visited the school many times and I am in-state so it will be at least 5k a year cheaper. Plus Charlottesville is my favorite town in the world.

The decision comes down to UVA and UPenn. Since I have a 169 and a 3.4, I know I am on the border for UPenn, so if I should to go there, I want ED to increase my chances. As a note, my job experience isn't that hot at all.

I will note that I have pretty strong chances at UVA, I have strong letters of recommendation, including the former dean at my undergrand, and a professor who knows the Director of Admissions at UVA, so I believe their letters will be weighed nicely. I am also in-state, and my undergrad program has an academic agreement with UVA law that I am told will push the needle just a bit.

It comes down to price and job statistics. I want to do BigLaw, in a transaction practice.

As far as BigLaw placement. . .

UVA BigLaw + Fed Clerk = ~62% (2012)

UPenn BigLaw + Fed Clerk = ~77% (2012)

1)Now I understand UVA is hurt a little by the fact that many of its students chase after the notorious difficult DC market, I don't plan on bidding DC since I want to practice transactional law.
2)Also UVA Class of 2012 class size was about 370-375. They admitted 335 students this fall, I suspect this will help their numbers since they have fewer students to place.
3)I have strong ties to the Richmond market through my very strong undergrad alumni network, which has several partners at Richmond firms, including a hiring partner.
4)I have strong ties to the SV/SF and the Houston secondary markets through family. I was born in SV and my mothers side of my family lives in Houston.

How much does those four factors negate the 15% difference in placement numbers?
With the decrease in admits, do you think UVA's number will improve?

The difference in COA is 29k, in UVA's favor. Is that worth 15% in BigLaw placement numbers?

And finally, should the fact I like UVA, its culture and Cville a lot, factor into my decision making, especially in this tough economic climate?

Lastly I will say that in order of preference, my target markets are:
SV/SF
Houston
NYC
Richmond

Please no 0L's, I understand you want to give advice but I would like to have some posts imbued with experience in law school, OCI and law firm hiring.

BTW I am sure you can guess my undergrad.

Thanks,
P

Penn
/thread

btw those numbers. Not sure where you got them. UVA is more like 61%

VMI11 wrote:I need to decided which school to ED to, UVA or UPenn.

I have a 169 LSAT and 3.42 LSDAS GPA.

So as of now, unless I retake in Dec. and do better, Columbia, NYU, and Chicago are not realistic.

0L here. December retake should not be a maybe. If you can get it up just 3 or 4 more points you have a chance at Columbia/NYU, which would be ideal for your goal of transactional biglaw.

dj_roomba wrote:Penn
/thread

btw those numbers. Not sure where you got them. UVA is more like 61%

Good catch, my mistake, edited the original post.

I don't think you'll get into penn without a retake. Retake or do UVA.

(edit> actually, since you're GTFOing the 0Ls, I'm retracting my thoughts.)

I'd take Penn with your goals but you won't get in if their median stays at 170. You really need to retake as it sounds like you will be paying for this whole thing with loans. Splitters with your GPA and a higher LSAT last cycle were getting huge scholarships from UVA. The nice thing is both Penn and UVA allow you to ED after the December LSAT comes back.

Tiago Splitter wrote:I'd take Penn with your goals but you won't get in if their median stays at 170. You really need to retake as it sounds like you will be paying for this whole thing with loans. Splitters with your GPA and a higher LSAT last cycle were getting huge scholarships from UVA. The nice thing is both Penn and UVA allow you to ED after the December LSAT comes back.

I plan on doing the Dec LSAT again. I tried to do the Oct one but I couldn't fall asleep the night before, so I just scratched. I had gotten a 173 on one of the PT's in the 60's, so a recent one, the week before. So I know I have the potential to do better.

You're at/below lsat, and well below GPA for both...you should be more worried about getting into either of them, and less about which you will pick. Basically, to sum it up appropriately, you should be posting in the what are my chances forum, not the choosing forum.

Both of those are bad decisions. I am a 0L, but I have your numbers and decided to just not apply, because you need to face that wherever you go right now with that GPA, you're going to be paying a ridiculous sum of money for not-as-stellar-as-you-want-to-believe job prospects. Given what you've mentioned, UVA sounds like a better idea for you, but they both sound awful. Also the way you're looking at it implies you're a KJD with no real world experience, and you have absolutely no comprehension of what $250k of student loans is going to do to your life.

With regard to retaking, while that's always an option, it still won't fix your GPA, and you're still most likely going to pay sticker or very close to it unless you win the lottery and are one of the lucky splitters who curve out their numbers. I recommend doing what I did with my 3.4 Political Science degree, and that is go back to school and get a real degree, which will lead to a real job (I chose EE and have nothing but good things to say about it).

It's honestly surprising that the number of law school applicants hasn't dropped even more than it has. Before LST was around, every school had 98% placement and 160k median salary and everyone can make partner (if you find this difficult to believe, browse the TLS school profiles, most of which were written before LST--Fordham, e.g.). Now, because of LST, anyone can quickly get a much better view of what kinds of jobs graduates at a given school are getting and it paints a much less rosy picture. When people who know more than you do have heated debates over whether schools like Penn or UVA are worth attending at sticker, you really ought to sit back and ask yourself if you want to take on a quarter of a million dollars in debt in the hopes that you get one of those good jobs.

If someone asked me to invest $250,000 or more of my potential future earnings with a 60% chance of having a chance at a return on my investment that meets or exceeds that initial investment, I'd say no--wouldn't you?

And in regards to getting real world experience that you lack, rather than just blindly say that, I recommend applying for fulbrights, looking into government-sponsored study abroad programs, and/or teaching overseas. You'll gain some great perspective, and potentially save up some money--and when you have saved up this money, you'll develop an appreciation for how much money is actually worth, and you'll be much more hesitant to blow it all several times over on law school.

Also you posted in the wrong forum.

Your opinions are noted. I will say that I like my chances better in law school considering I struggled beyond trigonometry. Especially considering I got a C- in that class while I aced most of written papers in college. Curious to how you are doing EE, which I assume to mean electrical engineering, with a poly sci degree. I assume you are doing a BS program instead of a MS.

VMI11 wrote:Your opinions are noted. I will say that I like my chances better in law school considering I struggled beyond trigonometry. Especially considering I got a C- in that class while I aced most of written papers in college. Curious to how you are doing EE, which I assume to mean electrical engineering, with a poly sci degree. I assume you are doing a BS program instead of a MS.

Yes I had to do a second bachelor's. I had already taken all the prerequisite coursework during my first BS in poli sci, so I was able to start as junior standing and entrance into the college... Originally I did it as a hedge to law school so that the insane loans I'd have to take out would be more justified with an in into IP, but honestly I like it so much that I don't know that I'll want to go to law school after I graduate. Certainly your mileage may vary, but I can say that I'm at a middling, unimpressive institution, and I could have taken any of a few dozen different jobs... there is so much demand in EE.

I really, really, strongly urge you to consider at least waiting, even if you do retake. Apply if you want, but be incredibly cautious of attending any school at sticker. There are a lot of great and knowledgeable posters on this forum and many of them have taken sticker and seriously regretted it, and that lot includes some who have landed ostensibly desirable positions. The way law school apps are still crashing, your numbers might well be able to get a sizable discount at a good school, but I don't think the camel breaks this year.