Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:54 pm
TX is the only market I'm really interested in. Do any of these schools offer a notable advantage in the TX market and how do they compare with HYS and UT?
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Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw Forum
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Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:09 pm
Are you from Texas?
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:11 pm
Yes, very strong ties to Dallas, Houston and Austin
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:12 pm
For the Class of 2012, Penn sent 2.5% of its graduates to TX, Chicago 7%, and Columbia 2.2% (and for Columbia, this includes people who may have gone to AR, LA, or OK).
You can find this on the schools' employment pages.
https://www.law.upenn.edu/careers/emplo ... istics.php
http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective/employmentdata
http://web.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... nformation
IIRC, H is around 7%, though you should look up their and YS+UT's (new grouping?
) data yourself to be sure. Googling "x law employment data" usually does the trick.
Penn and Columbia predictably send most of their grads to NYC, with Chicago and H more spread out, which increases the TX %age. I'm not sure how much harder it would actually be to get TX from, say, Columbia v Chicago. The small TX %age at the former is probably largely self-selection.
One thing I can say with some confidence is that your chances will depend in large part on your ties to TX and your ability to sell your desire to live and work there indefinitely.
You can find this on the schools' employment pages.
https://www.law.upenn.edu/careers/emplo ... istics.php
http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective/employmentdata
http://web.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... nformation
IIRC, H is around 7%, though you should look up their and YS+UT's (new grouping?
) data yourself to be sure. Googling "x law employment data" usually does the trick.Penn and Columbia predictably send most of their grads to NYC, with Chicago and H more spread out, which increases the TX %age. I'm not sure how much harder it would actually be to get TX from, say, Columbia v Chicago. The small TX %age at the former is probably largely self-selection.
One thing I can say with some confidence is that your chances will depend in large part on your ties to TX and your ability to sell your desire to live and work there indefinitely.
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:54 pm
From a top school like Columbia or Chicago, I would say it's probably more self-selection on the lower percentage of Texas Biglaw.
I don't think you'd have much trouble as long as you have strong ties to the area.
I don't think you'd have much trouble as long as you have strong ties to the area.
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:33 am
All are inferior to YHS and significantly superior to UT in placement ability.cruxisfalcon wrote:Do any of these schools offer a notable advantage in the TX market and how do they compare with HYS and UT?
+1kalvano wrote:From a top school like Columbia or Chicago, I would say it's probably more self-selection on the lower percentage of Texas Biglaw.
As an aside, I don't think getting Houston BigLaw requires particularly "strong" ties of people from top schools. Ties help, of course, there are many much more parochial markets.I don't think you'd have much trouble as long as you have strong ties to the area.
My perspective might be a bit skewed, but I just watched more than one of my classmates target Texas and secure several Houston offers without ever having set foot in the state outside of an airport.
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:41 am
True, it's Austin and Dallas that are much more heavily into ties. But who would want to live in Houston anyway?
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:44 am
Houston's the only part of Texas I'd even consider living in.kalvano wrote:True, it's Austin and Dallas that are much more heavily into ties. But who would want to live in Houston anyway?
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:27 am
Houston is a vile swamp full of trollops, nee'r-do-wells, charlatans, and thieves. You are welcome to it and good day to you sir.
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:34 am
kalvano wrote:Houston is a vile swamp full of trollops, nee'r-do-wells, charlatans, and thieves. You are welcome to it and good day to you sir.
How difficult is it to get Houston biglaw compared to the other major markets? Everyone says NYC is easiest, DC is really tough, Chicago was owned by the recession. Where does Houston fit in?
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:38 am
I went to CLS. There are a lot of firms (TX firms or national firms with TX offices) that come to the on-campus interview program. Problem is that their summer class sizes are tiny. You'll be competing for a handful of callbacks for each firm- maybe even one or two.
I have friends with extensive Texas ties (never lived anywhere else except for law school) who struck out in Texas but got offers in New York.
I have friends with extensive Texas ties (never lived anywhere else except for law school) who struck out in Texas but got offers in New York.
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:43 am
Houston's economy is doing pretty well, actually. There are a lot of postings on SMU's Symplicity for Houston firms, some large, some small. Of all the Texas markets, it's probably the easiest to get into.
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:17 pm
kalvano wrote:Houston is a vile swamp full of trollops, nee'r-do-wells, charlatans, and thieves. You are welcome to it and good day to you sir.
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:28 pm
Go to the one that has the lowest COA and enjoy your Texas big law job in three-four years.
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:34 pm
While this is generally true in a vacuum, it depends on the firm, even if we are talking Texas biglaw. Many Texas biglaw firms don't even recruit outside of Texas. The sheer proximity of UT to these firms gives Texas grads a leg up at these firms. Now if you go to, say Columbia, you would need to hustle your butt off just make your presence known to these firms. They aren't going to show up to your OCI or any of your off campus job fairs for that matter. And if they like your ties, then I'm sure you would not have a problem getting that particular biglaw job.All are inferior to YHS and significantly superior to UT in placement ability.
But is a huge misconception on this site that all of Texas biglaw hires uniformly. There is a huge difference in the hiring practices of Fulbright, Jackson Walker, and Brown McCarrol. The first has a much more national presence. The other two do not. But they are all Texas biglaw. The Texas biglaw firms that do not have a national presence don't hire outside of UT much. I don't think it's because they view UT law kids as being superior to other top school kids. It's that UT is much closer in proximity. So it's easier from which to recruit.
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:40 pm
It's my home so I am biased, but I agree with this sentiment. The nice parts of Houston are much nicer than the nicer parts of Austin, not including natural scenery, of course.jselson wrote:Houston's the only part of Texas I'd even consider living in.kalvano wrote:True, it's Austin and Dallas that are much more heavily into ties. But who would want to live in Houston anyway?
I never visited a place in Austin when I lived there that was as nice any of the nicest parts of Houston.
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:03 pm
I also find it curious that people on this site give other top schools credit for self selection, but don't consider the self selection component when it comes to UT Law grads getting Texas Biglaw. I am not saying that UT has superior placement power over any top national school in Texas. I am saying that when it comes to self selection, anecdotal evidence is the only kind of evidence that can shed light on it. And Texas's low COA allows for some UT law grads to self select out of the big three in Texas biglaw to smaller Texas biglaw firms that are really just Texas based firms that pay at or near market. I had a classmate turn down an offer at Baker Botts for working at a much smaller firm. Both offers where in Austin. If she lived in Chicago, she would not have been able to do that. And that firm that she chose doesn't recruit outside of Texas or at any other school in Texas other than UT, at least back then it didn't. And choosing these smaller firms that pay at or near market happens with regularity among Texas grads.
If it is a regional company, the UT Law brand is incredibly great. It's Texas we're talking about. I don't think people here understand just how self absorbed Texas is. Texas is so self absorbed to the point of annoyance. The national/international law firms based out of Texas think very much like all of the other big law firms around the country. But once you get more regional, even with regional firms that pay at or near market, its all about Texas.
I've lived here all of my life. I am just telling you how it is.
If it is a regional company, the UT Law brand is incredibly great. It's Texas we're talking about. I don't think people here understand just how self absorbed Texas is. Texas is so self absorbed to the point of annoyance. The national/international law firms based out of Texas think very much like all of the other big law firms around the country. But once you get more regional, even with regional firms that pay at or near market, its all about Texas.
I've lived here all of my life. I am just telling you how it is.
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:21 pm
utlaw2007 wrote:I also find it curious that people on this site give other top schools credit for self selection, but don't consider the self selection component when it comes to UT Law grads getting Texas Biglaw. I am not saying that UT has superior placement power over any top national school in Texas. I am saying that when it comes to self selection, anecdotal evidence is the only kind of evidence that can shed light on it. And Texas's low COA allows for some UT law grads to self select out of the big three in Texas biglaw to smaller Texas biglaw firms that are really just Texas based firms that pay at or near market. I had a classmate turn down an offer at Baker Botts for working at a much smaller firm. Both offers where in Austin. If she lived in Chicago, she would not have been able to do that. And that firm that she chose, doesn't recruit outside of Texas or at any other school in Texas other than UT, at least back then it didn't. And choosing these smaller firms that pay at or near market happens with regularity among Texas grads.
If it is a regional company, the UT Law brand is incredibly great. It's Texas we're talking about. I don't think people here understand just how self absorbed Texas is. Texas is so self absorbed to the point of annoyance. The national/international law firms based out of Texas think very much like all of the other big law firms around the country. But once you get more regional, even with regional firms that pay at or near market, its all about Texas.
I've lived here all of my life. I am just telling you how it is.
Wtf are you talking about?
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:24 pm
Ordinarily, I would answer your question. But your disrespectful tone and needless hostility for something I said is uncalled for so I am not going to answer. Perhaps, if you address me in a more respectful tone, I'll answer your question.Greenandgold wrote:utlaw2007 wrote:I also find it curious that people on this site give other top schools credit for self selection, but don't consider the self selection component when it comes to UT Law grads getting Texas Biglaw. I am not saying that UT has superior placement power over any top national school in Texas. I am saying that when it comes to self selection, anecdotal evidence is the only kind of evidence that can shed light on it. And Texas's low COA allows for some UT law grads to self select out of the big three in Texas biglaw to smaller Texas biglaw firms that are really just Texas based firms that pay at or near market. I had a classmate turn down an offer at Baker Botts for working at a much smaller firm. Both offers where in Austin. If she lived in Chicago, she would not have been able to do that. And that firm that she chose, doesn't recruit outside of Texas or at any other school in Texas other than UT, at least back then it didn't. And choosing these smaller firms that pay at or near market happens with regularity among Texas grads.
If it is a regional company, the UT Law brand is incredibly great. It's Texas we're talking about. I don't think people here understand just how self absorbed Texas is. Texas is so self absorbed to the point of annoyance. The national/international law firms based out of Texas think very much like all of the other big law firms around the country. But once you get more regional, even with regional firms that pay at or near market, its all about Texas.
I've lived here all of my life. I am just telling you how it is.
Wtf are you talking about?
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:37 pm
When you address me or anyone for that matter, you need to watch your tone.
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:43 pm
(Posts rambly wall of text that makes little to no sense)
(Tone trolls)
(Tone trolls)
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:45 pm
I guess everyone has something to say when they sit behind a computer screen.
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:47 pm
Do you only get easily butthurt behind a computer screen or is it an around-the-clock thing
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:48 pm
That was very funny. Have you ever thought about doing stand up? You should try it. I think you would be good.IAFG wrote:Do you only get easily butthurt behind a computer screen or is it an around-the-clock thing
Re: Penn vs Chicago vs Columbia for Texas Biglaw
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:50 pm
Trollollolutlaw2007 wrote:That was very funny. Have you ever thought about doing stand up? You should try it. I think you would be good.IAFG wrote:Do you only get easily butthurt behind a computer screen or is it an around-the-clock thing