Top Law Schools

Hi all,
I am a transfer student trying to decide between Columbia and UVA. I want to practice corporate/securities law in Boston or NYC for the best firm that will hire me. I definitely like the culture and location of UVA more -- I like the laid back, fratty atmosphere and its small-town location. Charlottesville is beautiful and has a much lower cost of living. I am questioning its network and reach to the NYC or Boston markets, however (I know these are good, just not as good as CLS).

On the other hand, I think that CLS will give me an advantage in my career aspirations-- better access to top law firms and networks in NYC. While I want to end up in NYC or Boston eventually, paying to live in the city during school would definitely add to the debt a bit. I am not too worried about that though, because I feel the marginal difference won't be enough to have that significant of an effect over my lifetime. CLS will also be about $10k more in tuition.

I am having the hardest time deciding (and my deadline is approaching), so any help would be much appreciated. So, UVA or CLS?

You will be paying full cost if you are a transfer, right?

Then go to Columbia. It is a little bit better school.

Yes, full cost for both schools

Easy, Columbia!

I think Columbia is the easy pick here, but thats just my opinion and the employment data

There is arguably no better place to go for you than Columbia. It's only two more years, fuck culture, look at the job data. Uva is a good school, but it's a lot easier to get totally screwed there than at Columbia if you're hunting nyc biglaw.

Also,this worries me, if nyc isn't culturally a good fit for school, why is it your goal for employment?

UVA's laid-back atmosphere is a facade. It's just a bunch of people gunning in secret instead of openly because it's apparently de rigeur to pretend like you're so chill you don't even give a fuck how you do on the exams. Even fraternity men with 3.7+/170+ work hard, even if they're less liable to admit it.

If you're a transfer student who isn't interested in clerking, it probably doesn't matter all that much. But you'll probably find CLS to be more useful.

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:UVA's laid-back atmosphere is a facade. It's just a bunch of people gunning in secret instead of openly because it's apparently de rigeur to pretend like you're so chill you don't even give a fuck how you do on the exams. Even fraternity men with 3.7+/170+ work hard, even if they're less liable to admit it.

How many years have you been at UVA bro?

Br3v wrote:

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:UVA's laid-back atmosphere is a facade. It's just a bunch of people gunning in secret instead of openly because it's apparently de rigeur to pretend like you're so chill you don't even give a fuck how you do on the exams. Even fraternity men with 3.7+/170+ work hard, even if they're less liable to admit it.

How many years have you been at UVA bro?

To be fair, you could be at UVA for a decade and not know whether or not someone believes the way they act outwardly. I'd tend to believe that students at T14 law schools tend to care about their performance no matter how chill they seem. All you'd do by being there is confirm everyone's outward demeanor without knowing how many were secret gunners.

*Edit - Outside the T14, I'm sure this holds true as well.

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:UVA's laid-back atmosphere is a facade. It's just a bunch of people gunning in secret instead of openly because it's apparently de rigeur to pretend like you're so chill you don't even give a fuck how you do on the exams. Even fraternity men with 3.7+/170+ work hard, even if they're less liable to admit it.

(0L who had a deposit down at UVA before getting in off the WL at Columbia)

OP, go to Columbia.

North wrote:

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:UVA's laid-back atmosphere is a facade. It's just a bunch of people gunning in secret instead of openly because it's apparently de rigeur to pretend like you're so chill you don't even give a fuck how you do on the exams. Even fraternity men with 3.7+/170+ work hard, even if they're less liable to admit it.

(0L who had a deposit down at UVA and is bitter he read all 300 goddamn pages of the 'UVA questions' thread before getting in off the WL at Columbia)

Fixed.

Didn't mean to give off the wrong impression--UVA students speak very highly of the atmosphere. It is, it seems, the most "relaxed" of the T14 schools, by all accounts, whereas Columbia has long been rumored to be pretty cutthroat. In terms of a "student life" dynamic, I'd take UVA every time.

Just pointing out that every UVA student comments on this weird dynamic where you're supposed to vastly underexaggerate the amount you actually work, so prospective students ought to know about it. A lot of people seem to try to make it look like it's a three year frat party--it's still T14 law school.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, the idea of Columbia's "culture" being cutthroat is complete bullshit. It's a top 14 and the student body is essentially the same as any other top 14. I have no idea why that myth still persists- NYU trolls at the ASWs, the fact it's an Ivy, it still has letter grades, it's in NYC, alot of people work biglaw, but that wasn't my experience at all. And believe me, for all the time I spent bitching on this site about law school and Columbia in particular, if the student body at all gave me cause to complain it would be obvious.

EDIT: Just saw you were a transfer. At CLS, nobody tries particularly hard during 2L or 3L unless they are going for a clerkship. Go, take a bunch of LLM heavy classes and seminars, and enjoy a nice B+/A- average.

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:

North wrote:

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:UVA's laid-back atmosphere is a facade. It's just a bunch of people gunning in secret instead of openly because it's apparently de rigeur to pretend like you're so chill you don't even give a fuck how you do on the exams. Even fraternity men with 3.7+/170+ work hard, even if they're less liable to admit it.

(0L who had a deposit down at UVA and is bitter he read all 300 goddamn pages of the 'UVA questions' thread before getting in off the WL at Columbia)

Fixed.

Didn't mean to give off the wrong impression--UVA students speak very highly of the atmosphere. It is, it seems, the most "relaxed" of the T14 schools, by all accounts, whereas Columbia has long been rumored to be pretty cutthroat. In terms of a "student life" dynamic, I'd take UVA every time.

Just pointing out that every UVA student comments on this weird dynamic where you're supposed to vastly underexaggerate the amount you actually work, so prospective students ought to know about it. A lot of people seem to try to make it look like it's a three year frat party--it's still T14 law school.

This is probably true at many of the top schools. I have heard the same thing about Stanford, NYU and Penn.

columbia is a no-brainer.

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote: Just pointing out that every UVA student comments on this weird dynamic where you're supposed to vastly underexaggerate the amount you actually work, so prospective students ought to know about it. A lot of people seem to try to make it look like it's a three year frat party--it's still T14 law school.

That's a fair point, and I am sure most of that BS about "oh, UVA (or insert school here) is so laid back man." You hear horror stories from pretty much every school (although the worst I've heard are Chicago and Cornell), but they kind of take on a life of their own after awhile, and most are probably exaggerations. The fact is, at a T-14, you're going to be with bright people who are going to work hard to succeed. This in itself isn't a bad thing, though, and one can still be competitive while being "laid back".

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about the "competitive nature" in choosing a school. Unless you go to HYS, there are more students than Biglaw/FedClerk positions available. No one got into the T14 by sitting on their ass. Truth is, there's probably little difference in the student bodies within the T14. You'll have people who act like they're too cool to care, and you'll have the people who are outwardly paranoid. If the idea of being around Type A kids seriously bothers you, then you probably are picking the wrong career.

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:

North wrote:

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:UVA's laid-back atmosphere is a facade. It's just a bunch of people gunning in secret instead of openly because it's apparently de rigeur to pretend like you're so chill you don't even give a fuck how you do on the exams. Even fraternity men with 3.7+/170+ work hard, even if they're less liable to admit it.

(0L who had a deposit down at UVA and is bitter he read all 300 goddamn pages of the 'UVA questions' thread before getting in off the WL at Columbia)

Fixed.

Didn't mean to give off the wrong impression--UVA students speak very highly of the atmosphere. It is, it seems, the most "relaxed" of the T14 schools, by all accounts, whereas Columbia has long been rumored to be pretty cutthroat. In terms of a "student life" dynamic, I'd take UVA every time.

Just pointing out that every UVA student comments on this weird dynamic where you're supposed to vastly underexaggerate the amount you actually work, so prospective students ought to know about it. A lot of people seem to try to make it look like it's a three year frat party--it's still T14 law school.

You are completley wrong and it just sounds like you are trying to justify your decision to yourself.

Ask anyone from a non-UVA law school who came down for the softball tournament what they think. I know tons of people in law school, and work with a bunch this summer, and I can genuinely say I lived it up 1L year compared to all of them. Based on stories we have shared, they seem to agree.

Now, that being said, OP should probably go with Columbia. But let's not pretend that the UVA/ culture thing is a myth. It's not

Wahoos wrote:

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:

North wrote:

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:UVA's laid-back atmosphere is a facade. It's just a bunch of people gunning in secret instead of openly because it's apparently de rigeur to pretend like you're so chill you don't even give a fuck how you do on the exams. Even fraternity men with 3.7+/170+ work hard, even if they're less liable to admit it.

(0L who had a deposit down at UVA and is bitter he read all 300 goddamn pages of the 'UVA questions' thread before getting in off the WL at Columbia)

Fixed.

Didn't mean to give off the wrong impression--UVA students speak very highly of the atmosphere. It is, it seems, the most "relaxed" of the T14 schools, by all accounts, whereas Columbia has long been rumored to be pretty cutthroat. In terms of a "student life" dynamic, I'd take UVA every time.

Just pointing out that every UVA student comments on this weird dynamic where you're supposed to vastly underexaggerate the amount you actually work, so prospective students ought to know about it. A lot of people seem to try to make it look like it's a three year frat party--it's still T14 law school.

You are completley wrong and it just sounds like you are trying to justify your decision to yourself.

Ask anyone from a non-UVA law school who came down for the softball tournament what they think. I know tons of people in law school, and work with a bunch this summer, and I can genuinely say I lived it up 1L year compared to all of them. Based on stories we have shared, they seem to agree.

Now, that being said, OP should probably go with Columbia. But let's not pretend that the UVA/ culture thing is a myth. It's not

Sure but you could just be one of the UvA kids understating your workload and exaggerating your frat-esque life, (which is a somewhat sad ambition after college anyway, id prefer an environment where law students arent interested in reliving sophomore yr of undergrad), just as Mono described. Arent you just fitting the prototype he articulated?

Wahoos wrote:I know tons of people in law school, and work with a bunch this summer, and I can genuinely say I lived it up 1L year compared to all of them. Based on stories we have shared, they seem to agree.

Now, that being said, OP should probably go with Columbia. But let's not pretend that the UVA/ culture thing is a myth. It's not

You probably enjoyed yourself because law school isn't all that time consuming. The last year of my life has been as relaxing and enjoyable as any year can be, and incredibly I don't go to UVA. At Columbia, we take three classes first semester. We don't have graded legal writing. There is a TON of time to enjoy yourself in New York City throughout both semesters. If you want to have the time of your life, regardless of whether you're a 1L or not, you can do it here.

If I was guaranteed the same job out of both places, UVa every day of the week.

bananapeanutbutter wrote:If I was guaranteed the same job out of both places, UVa every day of the week.

But you're not.

skinnylinny33 wrote:Hi all,
I like the laid back, fratty atmosphere

roflz lord have mercy