Where to go?! Forum

cfox17 · Post by **cfox17** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:01 am

Hello everyone, I was on here a few months ago looking over schools and reading the forums, I finally took the LSAT in June and got my score back earlier this month. I did pretty well for hardly studying and I plan on retaking in October to hopefully jump a few points. I currently have a 3.6 GPA and scored a 158 LSAT. I want to work in business/corporate law but not necessarily "biglaw" if that makes sense, however I am young and who knows what will gain my interest. I want to stay in the South (NC, TN, GA, MS, etc). I have ties all throughout TN, some areas on NC, and parts of GA into Atlanta. I know most of you will laugh at my list of schools and probably say I will live a miserable life barely affording my bills and student debt but I'm fine with that, I want to gain a good legal education and practice the profession of law, it is truly my passion. Without further ado...

My List:
Tulane, Richmond, Baylor, UT-Knoxville, LSU, Cincinnati, Michigan State, Pittsburgh, South Carolina, St. Louis, Ole Miss, New Hampshire, Charleston, Suffolk, Rutgers, Miami, Case Western, and Louisville. I may try to get luck with Wake or UNC but hopefully I will open more doors with a higher LSAT in October, anyways please help me narrow down this list since it may be more realistic for me. I am wanting a good education with decent mobility in the South and I know it will not be Harvard, Northwestern, or Yale but I know I will be able to make a name for myself and work up the ladder the old fashioned way. Thank you for any help!

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:28 am

None of those schools are mobile throughout the south, especially not random northern schools like Mich state

And a lot of them have really bad job placement

lawschooltransparency.com

I suggest retaking and trying to go to UTK, UGA, UNC, Emory, and Wake for really cheap

Or if you score high enough, Vandy, Duke, UVA, hopefully with some discount

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:30 am

By "I suggest retaking" I mean don't even bother applying until you can do much better than a 158

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:49 am

You listed several new england/northeast schools that only place regionally, yet you want to practice in the south.

You need to re-evaluate the way you approach law school admissions/attendance.

Ti Malice · Post by **Ti Malice** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:38 am

What happened to your 165, OP?

nebula666 · Post by **nebula666** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:07 am

cfox17 wrote:I did pretty well for hardly studying

I want to gain a good legal education and practice the profession of law, it is truly my passion. Without further ado...

How do you reconcile these two?

BigZuck · Post by **BigZuck** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:33 am

Ti Malice wrote:What happened to your 165, OP?

Curious as well

cfox17 · Post by **cfox17** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:26 am

My PTs were all around 165, so I thought I would be able to get around that number for my actual score. I figured I would ask for advice around that number and see what I could start looking at. Unfortunately, I didn't make that well.

I stated that I wanted to practice in the South ultimately, but if a school like UNH, Rutgers, St Louis, etc has better job prospects and opportunity I obviously wouldn't shut the door on them.

cfox17 · Post by **cfox17** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:29 am

nebula666 wrote:
cfox17 wrote:I did pretty well for hardly studying

I want to gain a good legal education and practice the profession of law, it is truly my passion. Without further ado...

How do you reconcile these two?

I by no means am saying I won't study or am not willing to work hard. I was simply saying I didn't have much time to prepare or study. I was uncertain if I was going to take the June test but decided to anyways to get a feel for it but only had about a month and a half to study. I have been studying most of the summer and hopefully I can improve in October.

Monochromatic Oeuvre · Post by **Monochromatic Oeuvre** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:12 pm

cfox17 wrote:My PTs were all around 165, so I thought I would be able to get around that number for my actual score. I figured I would ask for advice around that number and see what I could start looking at. Unfortunately, I didn't make that well.

I am graduating from UTK this May and I currently have a 3.6 GPA and 165 LSAT with 1 take.

Didn't seem all that ambiguous before. I don't understand why people just outright make things up on here. If you want the best feedback, post the real numbers; if you want to remain anonymous, don't post numbers at all.

Nova · Post by **Nova** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:17 pm

Please don't be misleading or make up stats. Regulars generally don't like hypos.

Mylsn.info and LST and LSN should get you by until you have real numbers.

thenewguy · Post by **thenewguy** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:30 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
cfox17 wrote:My PTs were all around 165, so I thought I would be able to get around that number for my actual score. I figured I would ask for advice around that number and see what I could start looking at. Unfortunately, I didn't make that well.

I am graduating from UTK this May and I currently have a 3.6 GPA and 165 LSAT with 1 take.
Didn't seem all that ambiguous before. I don't understand why people just outright make things up on here. If you want the best feedback, post the real numbers; if you want to remain anonymous, don't post numbers at all.

I agree. I am new here myself and OP on only two posts and think this may be first time suggesting something for someone else. I came to this website to get good advice and opinions from people very well exposed and knowledgeable about the apps process. The only way to achieve this is to post honest numbers so you maximize the benefit you receive from logging onto TLS.

cfox17 · Post by **cfox17** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:43 pm

I definitely did not mean to come off this way, I was hoping to do well and obviously going from taking relaxed PTs to the LSAT is a big jump. I didn't post numbers to be lying, it's what I was anticipating on making. However, like tons of other people I didn't make that number. I too came to this site for advice on schools and the application process but it's starting to be a site where you are constantly criticized and your success is damned if you don't score a 180 and have a 4.0 GPA. I apologize for any misunderstanding, I'm just a prospective student looking for my best option. I know I need to do better, it doesn't take a genius to note a 158 isn't that great but it certainly isn't horrible. Thanks to everyone who has gave me good advice. I believe a retake in October and schools like UTK, UNC, Memphis, or Ole Miss are my best options.

Nova · Post by **Nova** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:57 pm

cfox17 wrote:I too came to this site for advice on schools and the application process but it's starting to be a site where you are constantly criticized and your success is damned if you don't score a 180 and have a 4.0 GPA

Pretty much everyone is cool with posters going to regional schools in markets they want to practice in for a reasonable cost so long as they don't have delusions of getting big law.

Ti Malice · Post by **Ti Malice** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:04 pm

No one is being criticized here for not having high numbers. Posters here are offering frank advice to help keep people from making bad decisions with very serious consequences. To understand this, you first have to be open to having all of your preconceptions challenged. Presently you are not, which is why you feel like you're being attacked.

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:53 pm

cfox17 · Post by **cfox17** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:16 pm

Nova wrote:
cfox17 wrote:I too came to this site for advice on schools and the application process but it's starting to be a site where you are constantly criticized and your success is damned if you don't score a 180 and have a 4.0 GPA
Pretty much everyone is cool with posters going to regional schools in markets they want to practice in for a reasonable cost so long as they don't have delusions of getting big law.

I understand, as I have said I want to stay in the South, obviously if other schools or options became available I would be up for change. I appreciate your comments. I do not have notions of going to a regional southern school and being able to field jobs in New York or CA, I simply want to work in the South and obtain a reputable job.

cfox17 · Post by **cfox17** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:20 pm

Ti Malice wrote:No one is being criticized here for not having high numbers. Posters here are offering frank advice to help keep people from making bad decisions with very serious consequences. To understand this, you first have to be open to having all of your preconceptions challenged. Presently you are not, which is why you feel like you're being attacked.

Thank you, Ti Malice. I understand and I know the LSAT is a major portion of law school but so is many other concepts. I'll learn with time. I just came here for advice because there are hardly any other sites as this one. I know my scores are not as competitive as a lot of posters, I am going to work hard, study my butt off and get a higher score in October. I only provided the 165 since my PTs where there and I thought I could get it.

cfox17 · Post by **cfox17** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:22 pm

rad lulz wrote:
cfox17 wrote:I definitely did not mean to come off this way, I was hoping to do well and obviously going from taking relaxed PTs to the LSAT is a big jump. I didn't post numbers to be lying, it's what I was anticipating on making. However, like tons of other people I didn't make that number. I too came to this site for advice on schools and the application process but it's starting to be a site where you are constantly criticized and your success is damned if you don't score a 180 and have a 4.0 GPA. I apologize for any misunderstanding, I'm just a prospective student looking for my best option. I know I need to do better, it doesn't take a genius to note a 158 isn't that great but it certainly isn't horrible. Thanks to everyone who has gave me good advice. I believe a retake in October and schools like UTK, UNC, Memphis, or Ole Miss are my best options.
So did you not really want advice then?

Just wanted someone to pat you on the back and say "good job?"

No, I believe you answered my question and provided adequate advice. I did not mean you, you honestly answered my question. I'm a grown up, I do not need things sugar coated. I appreciate your response, and I agree with you. I need to study harder with a more efficient plan and get that score up then come back and we'll talk haha.

I am sorry everyone for the bad blood, I appreciate everyones insight. Most of you guys are a lot more knowledgable then me and have a way more understanding of the law school process.

Post by **romothesavior** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:34 pm

cfox17 wrote:I definitely did not mean to come off this way, I was hoping to do well and obviously going from taking relaxed PTs to the LSAT is a big jump. I didn't post numbers to be lying, it's what I was anticipating on making. However, like tons of other people I didn't make that number. I too came to this site for advice on schools and the application process but it's starting to be a site where you are constantly criticized and your success is damned if you don't score a 180 and have a 4.0 GPA. I apologize for any misunderstanding, I'm just a prospective student looking for my best option. I know I need to do better, it doesn't take a genius to note a 158 isn't that great but it certainly isn't horrible. Thanks to everyone who has gave me good advice. I believe a retake in October and schools like UTK, UNC, Memphis, or Ole Miss are my best options.

No one is saying you have to have a 4.0/180, and no one says you are doomed with your 158. But if you apply with your 158, your odds of long-term success are quite low. It sounds like you're doing the right thing by retaking. Focus on getting as many points as you can, and then hopefully we can advise you once you kill the LSAT.

bananapeanutbutter · Post by **bananapeanutbutter** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:59 pm

People that go to Syracuse don't get reputable jobs 95% of the time, and less than these 5% make paying sticker worth it. A 158 with moderate studying isn't a score to be proud of. Just study harder and do better. 12 points can change your odds of long term success from about 5% to about 60% - that is a crazy big difference. It is also much less work to up the 12 points than to be top 5% of your TT class to transfer (think 3 hours a day vs. 12 hours a day + a lot of luck) so delaying the work is even dumber.

Don't take anything personally, and don't be proud of your numerical achievements as they aren't very impressive. Be proud of your intelligence and work ethic, and you'll do well.

Pure Protein · Post by **Pure Protein** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:03 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre · Post by **Monochromatic Oeuvre** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:11 pm

If TLS seems elitist, it's because non-elite applicants almost never wind up making enough money to pay back their debt. We're not telling you that 90% of schools aren't good enough for shits and giggles, we're telling you because 90% of schools are legitimately not good enough, at least in the context of six-figure debt. Part of the reason we tell a lot of people not to go to law school is that way too many people are still going to law school, and paying sticker at a T2 is literally the worst decision you will ever make in your life.

cfox17 · Post by **cfox17** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:37 pm

Pure Protein wrote:
cfox17 wrote:I too came to this site for advice on schools and the application process but it's starting to be a site where you are constantly criticized and your success is damned if you don't score a 180 and have a 4.0 GPA
I honestly feel compelled to comment after reading this.

There may be certain times when TLS seems unreasonably harsh on applicants with low stats but, in the overwhelming majority of circumstances, it IS advice. Contributors who tell you that you have a bad LSAT score do it for your benefit. They know that law school is extremely expensive and that employment, even at T-14s, is not guaranteed. The people who are put-off by this attitude tend to be ones who only look at law school with a "get in the door" mentality. What TLS does is try to convince you that "getting in the door" (getting accepted to a school) should not be your goal. In fact, some people on this forum have lived through, or are still living through, the circumstances surrounding a high debt/bad prospects JD. People who want to work in small or medium markets and go to strong regional schools on large scholarships are not criticized. The criticism (harsh advice) on TLS is largely reserved for people about to invest $200,000+ into an education that isn't worth it 99 times out of 100.

I for one am extremely thankful that I found TLS when I did. While I was accepted into a few good schools, some even on partial scholarship, TLS convinced me that it would be a terrible mistake to matriculate at any school if my LSAT potential wasn't reached. In the last 2 months of studying, I have seen that my actual score was nowhere near my potential. I will encourage you to do the same. Were you consistently hitting that 165 before you took it, or was that a one time thing? How many PTs did you take? How much prep material do you have left? Retake the test, and be as ready as you possibly can be.

Finally, this website isn't called "Mediocre Law Schools", "Average Law Schools", or even "Good Law Schools". It's "Top Law Schools", and the advice you will get here comes from people who either are aiming for or attending a Top Law School. This might be different in the school-specific areas of TLS, but you can't go to the "Choosing a Law School" section of "Top Law Schools", list several T2 or T3 schools (for which you will probably be paying sticker or close to it based on your stats) and then complain about the website.

Thank you, that was a great response. I was already set on taking the LSAT again in October as I had little change to prepare before and I only PT'd a few times (3-5). I analyzed my scores more closer and my best section was thrown out, figures, and then I bombed the logic games section. I think by simply studying, taking more PTs, going over my powerscore books, and by starting to learn how to think like the LSAT demands can improve my score drastically. Also, I do not mean to sound as complaining, and I do not believe people who are honest as to be bad advice. I solely meant not everyone can get into top law schools and with those scores I am not even near the range, so I was just looking for advice. I am going to study extremely hard and improve my score, thats the bottom line, then get into UT, UNC, Wake, or a strong regional school. That is where I want to be, in the South, and I believe that would fit me well.

cfox17 · Post by **cfox17** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:41 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:If TLS seems elitist, it's because non-elite applicants almost never wind up making enough money to pay back their debt. We're not telling you that 90% of schools aren't good enough for shits and giggles, we're telling you because 90% of schools are legitimately not good enough, at least in the context of six-figure debt. Part of the reason we tell a lot of people not to go to law school is that way too many people are still going to law school, and paying sticker at a T2 is literally the worst decision you will ever make in your life.

I understand, and I know that I can not expect much from schools that are low T2 or not even ranked. I am already planing on retaking the LSAT and a 158 is by no means acceptable to me. I know and can score much higher then that. I was simply looking for advice on schools, but I need to understand that before I can do that I need to improve my scores drastically and I will. I am sorry for getting under anyones skin or rubbing anybody the wrong way. I never intended to do so.

I believe the general consensus is to study hard, retake the LSAT, then hopefully place in a nice regional school like UGA, Vandy, UNC, UTK, etc.

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