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Is there really a difference between Penn vs [Chicago, NYU, Columbia] for V25 NY firms. Would the same student with the same GPA really have a vastly different outcome?

BigLaw_Lit wrote:Is there really a difference between Penn vs [Chicago, NYU, Columbia] for V25 NY firms. Would the same student with the same GPA really have a vastly different outcome?

I don't think anyone contends the outcome would be different

HYSCCN>>>>>>>>>>>>>>P>rest



Yes, there is a massive difference. The biggest difference between CCN and Penn for biglaw is this



Is there a difference between prestigious biglaw and not? Not for entry level pay. And most say not for anything at all.

sinfiery wrote:HYSCCN>>>>>>>>>>>>>>P>rest



Yes, there is a massive difference. The biggest difference between CCN and Penn for biglaw is this

Lol uh no. More like

HYS >>>>>Rest

This CCN/MVP/DNCG tier thing is only on TLS and it only applies to getting into schools, not about employment prospects.

mr.hands wrote:

sinfiery wrote:HYSCCN>>>>>>>>>>>>>>P>rest



Yes, there is a massive difference. The biggest difference between CCN and Penn for biglaw is this

Lol uh no. More like

HYS >>>>>Rest

This CCN/MVP/DNCG tier thing is only on TLS and it only applies to getting into schools, not about employment prospects.

Wrong.

You should probably realize this isn't really about employment opportunities but about high ranked vault firms preferences (vault has a bias towards NYC based firms)

A) the V5 hire far more from CCN than from MVP
B) biglaw placement is somewhat stronger at CCN, though not by a lot, and one if the lower schools always seems to outperform, but that varies from year to year

sinfiery wrote:

mr.hands wrote:

sinfiery wrote:HYSCCN>>>>>>>>>>>>>>P>rest



Yes, there is a massive difference. The biggest difference between CCN and Penn for biglaw is this

Lol uh no. More like

HYS >>>>>Rest

This CCN/MVP/DNCG tier thing is only on TLS and it only applies to getting into schools, not about employment prospects.

Wrong.

You should probably realize this isn't really about employment opportunities but about high ranked vault firms preferences (vault has a bias towards NYC based firms)

Dude, you put Yale/Stanford in the same tier as NYU, Chicago, and Columbia. (HYSCCN) That's just wrong.

I don't know if youre going to CCN or of you just don't know, but the gap between HYS and the rest of the T14 is bigger than any other of these "tiers." Period

Fine. YS>H>>CCN>>>>>>>>>>>>>rest

And only because of self selection. YS are not that common at these firms


You should look at the data for how many HCN associates are at these firms...YS and Chi, we assume self selection




I don't think you realize the question is regarding a specific niche. It's getting tiresome that you don't

mr.hands wrote:

sinfiery wrote:HYSCCN>>>>>>>>>>>>>>P>rest



Yes, there is a massive difference. The biggest difference between CCN and Penn for biglaw is this

Lol uh no. More like

HYS >>>>>Rest

This CCN/MVP/DNCG tier thing is only on TLS and it only applies to getting into schools, not about employment prospects.

I'm one of the biggest proponents of the theory that CCN isn't, in the aggregate, better than the rest of the T14. But at top vault firms they clearly dominate the rest of the T14.

Wouldn't call V25 "elite" but among the top 15 or so firms, CCN seems to do a lot better. But the advantage doesn't last. Top third at CCN is better than top third at T14, but by the time you are median it seems like the advantage is almost gone, and below median nobody cares you are at NYU.

Desert Fox wrote:Top third at CCN is better than top third at T14, but by the time you are median it seems like the advantage is almost gone, and below median nobody cares you are at NYU.

Looking at the raw data available, it is hard to disagree with any of that

Can you feel that? The air... it's almost tingling... the butthurt so thick, you could slice it with a knife.

EDIT:

sinfiery wrote:HYSCCN>>>>>>>>>>>>>>P>rest

lol egregious NYU trolling. If you insist on making sub tiers its more like HYS >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CCNP > everything else

Check the BL employment stats and decide if that is a reason why P is #5 nationally in the newest ATL rankings.

Desert Fox wrote:

mr.hands wrote:

sinfiery wrote:HYSCCN>>>>>>>>>>>>>>P>rest



Yes, there is a massive difference. The biggest difference between CCN and Penn for biglaw is this

Lol uh no. More like

HYS >>>>>Rest

This CCN/MVP/DNCG tier thing is only on TLS and it only applies to getting into schools, not about employment prospects.

I'm one of the biggest proponents of the theory that CCN isn't, in the aggregate, better than the rest of the T14. But at top vault firms they clearly dominate the rest of the T14.

Wouldn't call V25 "elite" but among the top 15 or so firms, CCN seems to do a lot better. But the advantage doesn't last. Top third at CCN is better than top third at T14, but by the time you are median it seems like the advantage is almost gone, and below median nobody cares you are at NYU.

People on TLS seem to be extremely persnickety about what "elite" means. Looking at the current legal market, and how the legal market will likely continue to be, just being employed in a vault 100 firm is "elite." Most of those firms will not hire you unless you are median or better at a T14 school (generally have to be better than median) or in the top 10% (generally better) at a regional powerhouse.

Given all that, I'd feel pretty safe saying most of the major national firms, which tend to be "V50" and above, are "elite."

Sub-tiers are dumb after YHS because each school has different strengths in different markets.

Go to the profile pages of any NYC big firm office and see how many Penn grads they have vs. NYU/Columbia. Adjust for class size (and perhaps for the fact that a fair number of Penn students stay in Philly), and you can quickly tell where elite firms are more likely to hire from.

Quickly ran a few random firms among the higher tier (just NYC offices) to illustrate, but this should give you a good idea of the placement in NYC offices, and where you would want to go, all things equal, if a top NYC firm is your goal:

Skadden: Penn - 24, NYU - 77, Columbia - 62
Davis Polk: Penn - 20, NYU - 117, Columbia - 113
Kirkland: Penn - 9, NYU - 47, Columbia - 44
Sidley: Penn - 11, NYU - 46, Columbia - 39
Ropes & Gray: Penn - 8, NYU - 36, Columbia - 34

Ran a few slightly less elite firms, and you can see that the disparity gets a bit smaller. So perhaps that does lend some credibility to the notion that Penn won't get you as far as NYU and Columbia for the top echelon of firms, but for lower tier Vault firms, it may be relatively comparable (and note that Penn is about 1/2 the size of NYU and Columbia, so you have to adjust for that)

Paul Hastings: Penn: 12, NYU - 29, Columbia - 19
Akin Gump: Penn: 10, NYU - 33, Columbia - 17
Fried Frank: Penn: 12, NYU - 45, Columbia - 40

UVAIce wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

mr.hands wrote:

sinfiery wrote:HYSCCN>>>>>>>>>>>>>>P>rest



Yes, there is a massive difference. The biggest difference between CCN and Penn for biglaw is this

Lol uh no. More like

HYS >>>>>Rest

This CCN/MVP/DNCG tier thing is only on TLS and it only applies to getting into schools, not about employment prospects.

I'm one of the biggest proponents of the theory that CCN isn't, in the aggregate, better than the rest of the T14. But at top vault firms they clearly dominate the rest of the T14.

Wouldn't call V25 "elite" but among the top 15 or so firms, CCN seems to do a lot better. But the advantage doesn't last. Top third at CCN is better than top third at T14, but by the time you are median it seems like the advantage is almost gone, and below median nobody cares you are at NYU.

People on TLS seem to be extremely persnickety about what "elite" means. Looking at the current legal market, and how the legal market will likely continue to be, just being employed in a vault 100 firm is "elite." Most of those firms will not hire you unless you are median or better at a T14 school (generally have to be better than median) or in the top 10% (generally better) at a regional powerhouse.

Given all that, I'd feel pretty safe saying most of the major national firms, which tend to be "V50" and above, are "elite."

I don't really care what elite is, but I was only defining it so I could describe where CCN has an advantage.

kaiser wrote:Quickly ran a few random firms among the higher tier (just NYC offices) to illustrate, but this should give you a good idea of the placement in NYC offices, and where you would want to go, all things equal, if a top NYC firm is your goal:

Skadden: Penn - 24, NYU - 77, Columbia - 62
Davis Polk: Penn - 20, NYU - 117, Columbia - 113
Kirkland: Penn - 9, NYU - 47, Columbia - 44
Sidley: Penn - 11, NYU - 46, Columbia - 39
Ropes & Gray: Penn - 8, NYU - 36, Columbia - 34

Ran a few slightly less elite firms, and you can see that the disparity gets a bit smaller. So perhaps that does lend some credibility to the notion that Penn won't get you as far as NYU and Columbia for the top echelon of firms, but for lower tier Vault firms, it may be relatively comparable (and note that Penn is about 1/2 the size of NYU and Columbia, so you have to adjust for that)

Paul Hastings: Penn: 12, NYU - 29, Columbia - 19
Akin Gump: Penn: 10, NYU - 33, Columbia - 17
Fried Frank: Penn: 12, NYU - 45, Columbia - 40

I found this pretty interesting, so I decided to get the numbers for the rest of the V10:

Wachtell: Penn - 17, Columbia - 46, NYU - 36
Cravath: Penn - 23, Columbia - 73, NYU - 42
Sullivan & Cromwell: Penn - 45, Columbia - 104, NYU - 69
Weil: Penn - 38, Columbia - 75, NYU - 85
Lathan & Watkins: Penn - 43, Columbia - 94, NYU - 99
Simpson Thatcher: Penn - 39, Columbia - 109, NYU - 81
Cleary Gottlieb: Penn - 38, Columbia - 141, NYU - 150

Now factor in class size.

This whole thread is blatant MVPDCNG trolling. If you honestly dont believe a student from Columbia has a better chance at NY top Vault firms than a student from P with the same grades you're delusional.

Thanks for the replies everyone. It seems most agree the T6 gives an advantage over Penn. Is that true for all of CCN - basically does Columbia=NYU for NY Elite biglaw?

Desert Fox wrote:Now factor in class size.

Already noted. Penn is about 1/2 the size of NYU & Columbia. Plus you also have to adjust a bit for the fact that a fair number of Penn students stay in Philly.

BigLaw_Lit wrote:Thanks for the replies everyone. It seems most agree the T6 gives an advantage over Penn. Is that true for all of CCN - basically does Columbia=NYU for NY Elite biglaw?

Look at the numbers posted in this thread since it seems like we covered nearly every elite firm. As we often say, the schools are peers as far as elite firm placement in NYC.

Shockingly people who go to school in NYC have an advantage with NYC firms. OP's problem is linking "elite" with V25 NYC offices.

BigLaw_Lit wrote:Thanks for the replies everyone. It seems most agree the T6 gives an advantage over Penn. Is that true for all of CCN - basically does Columbia=NYU for NY Elite biglaw?

Use the search function. There have been many, many CLS v. NYU threads.