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Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:25 pm
by pwnyc127
Brooklyn offered $50,000 with a top 80% stip
Fordham just accepted me off the waitlist today with $5,000. Not sure what Fordham's stips are.
Total COA (all 3 years combined)
Fordham- $160,662
Brooklyn- $22,026
In terms of loans, I would have to borrow $140,000 for Fordham and $2026 for Brooklyn.
I want to go to the best law school that I possibly can, however, I'm extremely debt averse due to the current state of the legal market. Is Fordham really worth paying $138,636 more?
I already took the lsat 3 times so retake is not an option.
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:32 pm
by shifty_eyed
In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:
-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:53 pm
by pwnyc127
I was born and raised in NY, and I want to work in NY or one of the surrounding states. Preferably in house corporate counsel or a large firm, however I realize that my priorities and interests may change during law school.
overall 3.52 and 163. 4.0 in the last two and a half years. Award from John Jay College for highest GPA in the criminal justice major.
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:59 pm
by empyreanrrv
We are looking for what your personal cost of attendance at those schools will be. If Fordham is sticker-5k, then you're probably looking at around 150k just with tuition for three years? If BLS is a full ride with free housing, you're probably looking at something like 10k CoA, if that? If that is the case it depends how badly you want biglaw. You probably won't get it from Fordham, but it'll be extremely hard to get it from BLS. 150k for Fordham is pretty insane, while BLS at ~20k can be reasonable. Take BLS and be at peace with no biglaw, or wait out the retake period and retake for T14.
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:17 pm
by nebula666
You didn't post the total COA so I was confused. If Brooklyn TOTAL COA isn't under 50k I wouldn't go. Don't pay sticker for Fordham.
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:48 pm
by pwnyc127
Is that the consensus here? Fordham sticker minus 5K is not worth it?
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:47 pm
by californiauser
Those COA numbers make no sense.
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:57 pm
by Ti Malice
pwnyc127 wrote:Is that the consensus here? Fordham sticker minus 5K is not worth it?
Not even close to worth it.
People are looking for your personal three-year cost of attendance, by the way. You should put those figures in the OP for more helpful advice.
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:05 pm
by BigZuck
Retake
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:07 pm
by guano
Ti Malice wrote:pwnyc127 wrote:Is that the consensus here? Fordham sticker minus 5K is not worth it?
Not even close to worth it.
People are looking for your personal three-year cost of attendance, by the way. You should put those figures in the OP for more helpful advice.
eh, not really necessary.
We're talking roughly $150k vs $30k (or less)
Fordham is objectively better, but unless daddy's footing the bill, the price ain't worth it
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:08 pm
by hephaestus
Brooklyn I guess, but it really doesn't seem to match your goals. Your chances of big law or other desirous outcomes are very small. I'd wait another year so you can take a 4th time.
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:04 pm
by PRgradBYU
pwnyc127 wrote:I was born and raised in NY, and I want to work in NY or one of the surrounding states. Preferably in house corporate counsel or a large firm,
Neither school is particularly conducive to your BigLaw / in-house goals (especially not Brooklyn -- it's at least possible from Fordham), so you either need to modify your expectations or wait a year and retake. Please do not go to Fordham at that price.
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:36 am
by michaelbluth
Neither. Retake.
I took 53k at Brooklyn over Fordham at sticker last year (Tuition+Stipend. Last year, tuition was ~48.5k). I'm in the top 3% of my class and have no regrets. I didn't come here wanting biglaw (though my goals have changed a bit as I woke up the morning after spring grades came out and remembered that I like money. Now I'd like it, but it wasn't my goal a year ago and I won't be devastated if I don't get it). If I was anywhere outside of the top 10%, though, I'd be freaking out right now.
With a few exceptions, OCI firms at BLS "prefer" or flat-out require top 10%. Those that don't require top 15-20 or are IP firms willing to dip down to the top-third. That doesn't mean you'll get a job out of the top 15-20 percent (or 33 for IP). That means a firm will bother looking at your resume when considering whether to give you a screener.
I really like it here and am not transferring, but I wouldn't tell anyone to come here if their goal was biglaw. Also, keep in mind BLS ups tuition each year and the 50k will probably not be a full ride for 2L and 3L.
Fordham's total COA puts you at almost a quarter of a million dollars in debt for about a 25% chance of the outcome you want. Brooklyn's ~75k for less than a 10% chance of that outcome. Unless a significant chunk of your COL is covered or you're willing to readjust your goals (e.g., work in NY area but not biglaw), neither makes sense but at least you'll have less debt coming out of BLS.
TCR is still retake. Do that. Please.
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:27 am
by UnderrateOverachieve
You say extremely debt averse, but you are not acting like it. What are some more realistic options if you can't retake and you don't have outside financial support?
I would take Fordham and the debt because I honestly don't care and would take on the risk. You clearly aren't interested in that. What offers have you gotten from other schools?
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:28 am
by UnderrateOverachieve
michaelbluth wrote:Neither. Retake.
I took 53k at Brooklyn over Fordham at sticker last year (Tuition+Stipend. Last year, tuition was ~48.5k). I'm in the top 3% of my class and have no regrets. I didn't come here wanting biglaw (though my goals have changed a bit as I woke up the morning after spring grades came out and remembered that I like money. Now I'd like it, but it wasn't my goal a year ago and I won't be devastated if I don't get it). If I was anywhere outside of the top 10%, though, I'd be freaking out right now.
With a few exceptions, OCI firms at BLS "prefer" or flat-out require top 10%. Those that don't require top 15-20 or are IP firms willing to dip down to the top-third. That doesn't mean you'll get a job out of the top 15-20 percent (or 33 for IP). That means a firm will bother looking at your resume when considering whether to give you a screener.
I really like it here and am not transferring, but I wouldn't tell anyone to come here if their goal was biglaw. Also, keep in mind BLS ups tuition each year and the 50k will probably not be a full ride for 2L and 3L.
Fordham's total COA puts you at almost a quarter of a million dollars in debt for about a 25% chance of the outcome you want. Brooklyn's ~75k for less than a 10% chance of that outcome. Unless a significant chunk of your COL is covered or you're willing to readjust your goals (e.g., work in NY area but not biglaw), neither makes sense but at least you'll have less debt coming out of BLS.
TCR is still retake. Do that. Please.
He has taken the test three times.
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:30 am
by Clearly
You're going to have to retake. You can either pay next to nothing to not reach your goals, or pay a lot to still also likely not reach your goals as it goes now.
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:32 am
by UnderrateOverachieve
Clearlynotstefan wrote:You're going to have to retake. You can either pay next to nothing to not reach your goals, or pay a lot to still also likely not reach your goals as it goes now.
Are people so stuck on the TLS retake that they do not read anymore? He has taken the test THREE times. Even if this is some how a fluke and he can score much higher, how much higher would his fourth test have to be for the law schools to even care?
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Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:37 am
by Another
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Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:53 am
by Clearly
UnderrateOverachieve wrote:Clearlynotstefan wrote:You're going to have to retake. You can either pay next to nothing to not reach your goals, or pay a lot to still also likely not reach your goals as it goes now.
Are people so stuck on the TLS retake that they do not read anymore? He has taken the test THREE times. Even if this is some how a fluke and he can score much higher, how much higher would his fourth test have to be for the law schools to even care?
I should be more clear. Retake, or don't go to law school, or change your goals. Those aren't my suggestions, those are the ONLY options. He should wait, and retake. I jumped 12 points on my third take, my friend jumped significantly on his fourth take and nabbed a T6. It happens. It depends on how much work he put into the first three takes. If he went ALL OUT for three times and couldn't score higher, then not much he can do. Take the brooklyn offer and understand biglaw is out. On the other hand, odds are with a full year to study, he could go all out and do well. Thats easier to do then giving up ones goals, at least to me.
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:57 am
by michaelbluth
UnderrateOverachieve wrote:
He has taken the test three times.
Then he can wait until he only has 2 scores within the however-many-year time period or beg a school to ask LSAC to let him take again.
Another option might be wait a year and reapply. With the applicant pool continuing to shrink, he may have better luck next year with his current numbers.
The point is, neither option is likely to get him the outcome he wants, so he should take neither option.
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:30 pm
by sinfiery
If you're willing to get rid of your goals of biglaw/in-house, Brooklyn at that price is decent depending on what job you're giving up
If not, Fordham is likely not worth that much debt. Retake or don't go
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:59 pm
by timbs4339
sinfiery wrote:If you're willing to get rid of your goals of biglaw/in-house, Brooklyn at that price is decent depending on what job you're giving up
If not, Fordham is likely not worth that much debt. Retake or don't go
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:35 pm
by blsingindisguise
Fordham is not worth that price. Period.
Brooklyn at low-five-figures is still a gamble but I like the upside vs. downside better than Fordham. At Fordham you still more likely than not don't get biglaw, and then you have six figure debt to service. At Brooklyn you VERY likely don't get biglaw but you're not in a giant financial hole coming out and can be a little more flexible with what kind of job you're willing to take.
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:31 pm
by 0831kf
Well, I somewhat hate the TLS "RETAKE" on pretty much anyone who has below 168~170ish. However, I have to say either "RETAKE" or change your goal.
Your chance of landing biglaw out of Brooklyn is less than 10%, out of Fordham is about 30%. If you really want biglaw, retake the test and go to Fordham at current Brooklyn price or Cornell.
Or change your goal. Otherwise, after your 2L OCI, very more than likely, you would regret that you did not listen to many people here.
Re: Brooklyn Law v. Fordham
Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:48 pm
by BigZuck
0831kf wrote:Well, I somewhat hate the TLS "RETAKE" on pretty much anyone who has below 168~170ish. However, I have to say either "RETAKE" or change your goal.
Your chance of landing biglaw out of Brooklyn is less than 10%, out of Fordham is about 30%. If you really want biglaw, retake the test and go to Fordham at current Brooklyn price or Cornell.
Or change your goal. Otherwise, after your 2L OCI, very more than likely, you would regret that you did not listen to many people here.
Why do you hate that?