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3.69, 165/169

I applied last cycle in early February with a 3.69/165. I was rejected at the t14 schools I applied to, and I am currently slated to attend the University of Washington in the fall. I will not have living expenses because I am from Seattle, and coupled with the scholarship I received (no stipulations), I will graduate with $79,000 of debt (Georgetown calculator). I will finance this with student loans. Not bad, but a little higher than I would like.

I decided I would retake the LSAT this past June. I told myself, 168 or below, I would stick with UW. 170 or higher, I would reapply in the beginning of next fall’s cycle. Lo and behold, I end up with a 169.

I’m wrestling between sticking with UW this fall and reapplying. I would like to consider reapplying at UW and hoping for more scholarship money, but they are notoriously stingy. I’m also concerned about being rejected after turning down this year’s offer.

I would love to attend a t14, but I don’t think the 169 will do it at the schools I want. I need to be in an urban area so my girlfriend can get a job she’ll be happy with. She’s currently a very successful young professional. Georgetown, Penn, NYU, and Northwestern would be at the top of my list.

I figure if I reapply, I will give the LSAT another shot in October, and I’ll still be able to apply early in the cycle. I’m confident I can increase my score by at least a point or two. I only studied for 6 weeks for June, and I was PTing 172-176 for my last 10 tests. However, there is obviously the possibility that I don’t.

I want to work in big law or government. I would prefer federal, but state is just fine. I want to end up in D.C. or back in Seattle.

Is reapplying in the fall a pretty big risk, or should I not be concerned about being rejected from UW for yield protect if I turn down the offer and reapply? How will schools view 3 scores, especially if I don’t improve the third time?

Thank in advance for the advice. I really appreciate it. TLS has been invaluable since I found it

Reapply.

You are definitely in at NU and GULC.
Possibly NYU off the WL.

Reapply. If you go to UW, you'll be having too many "what ifs" with that 169.

I am always baffled at people thinking that schools will hold a grudge and spite reject them the next cycle after they withdraw in the previous one. Reapply

WokeUpInACar wrote:I am always baffled at people thinking that schools will hold a grudge and spite reject them the next cycle after they withdraw in the previous one. Reapply

It's not that they will be spiteful. It's that they will see me as aiming for a higher school and not likely to attend, thereby rejecting in order to protect their yield.

I should probably just ask the admissions office.

Do you have ties to the PNW?

(I would reapply If I were you.)

Nova wrote:Do you have ties to the PNW?

(I would reapply If I were you.)

Yes. I grew up and currently live in Seattle. All my family is here.

Milk Man wrote:

Nova wrote:Do you have ties to the PNW?

(I would reapply If I were you.)

Yes. I grew up and currently live in Seattle. All my family is here.

oops. sorry. I glossed over that.

80k COA is good for T30. Especially with ties.

As for urban areas...GULC is basically a lock. Penn, NYU, and NU dont seem likely. Of course, the October LSAT could definitely be a game changer.


Since you want big law/gov, both unlikely outcomes from T30s, rolling the dice and sitting out seems like a good move.

Milk Man wrote:3.69, 165/169

I applied last cycle in early February with a 3.69/165. I was rejected at the t14 schools I applied to, and I am currently slated to attend the University of Washington in the fall. I will not have living expenses because I am from Seattle, and coupled with the scholarship I received (no stipulations), I will graduate with $79,000 of debt (Georgetown calculator). I will finance this with student loans. Not bad, but a little higher than I would like.

I decided I would retake the LSAT this past June. I told myself, 168 or below, I would stick with UW. 170 or higher, I would reapply in the beginning of next fall’s cycle. Lo and behold, I end up with a 169.

I’m wrestling between sticking with UW this fall and reapplying. I would like to consider reapplying at UW and hoping for more scholarship money, but they are notoriously stingy. I’m also concerned about being rejected after turning down this year’s offer.

I would love to attend a t14, but I don’t think the 169 will do it at the schools I want. I need to be in an urban area so my girlfriend can get a job she’ll be happy with. She’s currently a very successful young professional. Georgetown, Penn, NYU, and Northwestern would be at the top of my list.

I figure if I reapply, I will give the LSAT another shot in October, and I’ll still be able to apply early in the cycle. I’m confident I can increase my score by at least a point or two. I only studied for 6 weeks for June, and I was PTing 172-176 for my last 10 tests. However, there is obviously the possibility that I don’t.

I want to work in big law or government. I would prefer federal, but state is just fine. I want to end up in D.C. or back in Seattle.

Is reapplying in the fall a pretty big risk, or should I not be concerned about being rejected from UW if I turn down the offer and reapply? How will schools view 3 scores, especially if I don’t improve the third time?

Thank in advance for the advice. I really appreciate it. TLS has been invaluable since I found it

First, 79k COA @ UW is a very, very, lovely scenario especially with career aspirations within the insular Seattle market. Just to put it in some perspective, even if you were to get the 150k ED scholly from NU you would find yourself with a similar amount and most likely more debt due to COL. I was recently looking at some apartments near NYU and it's about 24k no matter how you cut it. Especially if you focus on living in the Village. Multiplied by three and your right back around the original 79k, http://www.renthop.com/mapm just for rent. At the same time it is true that your career opportunities open up significantly at either school. In any event getting significantly under 80k COA will be difficult at a top law school.

Keep in mind returning to Seattle would not necessarily be a lock. I say this because UW is the eleventh ranked law school feeder, http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/ ... chools.pdf . Since Seattle is a jewel often only known to those who visited, many UWUG students from T14 schools may likely want to return resulting in competition. Also maintaining median grades could be more challenging at a T14. UW does have a pretty high median relative to other law schools and I'm not sure how this would look to recruiters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la ... GPA_curves .

This opens up the topic of hiring. In terms of OCI, at UW, I believe the firm/office count is slightly less than 100 where as NYU/NU are both over 400. You may want to account for class sizes just FYI. I suggest using http://www.nalpdirectory.com/Page.cfm?PageID=34 and using the search query on the left column under, Campus Interviews, look over the hits that you get for each school. It will show a difference between schools in terms of firms/offices offering OCI. If you play with it a bit and narrow your search query for Seattle specifically you will notice NU beats NYU for Seattle offices by one or two both around 10-12 however, UW caters to Seattle with 30 plus, I believe. Of course, you could always mass mail. One other thing to mention is the compensation within smaller markets varies, but with that so does purchasing power, http://www.nalp.org/buying_power_index_ ... er%20index .

Regarding the retake, you're in a sweet spot according to the data. More repeaters with a 169 end up scoring in the 170s than not http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/ ... erdata.pdf .

As for Fed/Gov work UW is the flagship for Seattle, but DC would be better furnished by the T14 as well as Seattle Big Law + Big Law anywhere > whatever else. It also seems the government hiring freeze may be easing up http://waw.fd.org/employment/Announcement-FPD%20WAW.pdf , Seattle office. If you have a strong desire to live and establish a career in Seattle stay at UW, if not or you want a different life experience spread your wings.

As for the previous post you may want to narrow your search http://www.mylsn.info/4jd3l4 due to the significant down turn in applicants finally taking effect last cycle. I not trying to tempt you or anything, it is relevant.

As for TLS being invaluable well... TITCR

Hope this helps a little, congratulations and good luck!

Edited for the the's... whatever

Thanks Archangel, awesome answer. Thanks Nova, super helpful.

Looks like I'd have a pretty good shot at Georgetown. The only problem is the likelihood of scholarship $. Is being at median enough to get some money? I don't think Georgetown was particularly generous this past cycle.

Milk Man wrote:Thanks Archangel, awesome answer. Thanks Nova, super helpful.

Looks like I'd have a pretty good shot at Georgetown. The only problem is the likelihood of scholarship $. Is being at median enough to get some money? I don't think Georgetown was particularly generous this past cycle.

Gtown is notoriously stingy, so definitely don't count on them to come through with a lot of money. Dude if you can retake and get a couple more points you're in at cornell with at least 50% scholly, and you'll probably get in now with something anyway. Your GPA is good and will put you above a handful of medians as is your LSAT score. If you're debt averse and want to end up in seattle, full-ride to UW isn't a bad choice and with COL taken care of you'll be debt free, but you'll pretty much be saying bye-bye to biglaw. With your stats I feel like you'd be in contention for full-ride to GWU if you want DC(can any1 confirm this?), but biglaw chances are still ~25% and inflated by IP people.

You're going to get into some great schools. Go to the Applicants threads for the Lower T14 and take a look at the insane waitlist activity...it bodes incredibly well for you in the upcoming cycle. Duke, NU, Cornell, Gtown, are all in serious contention. Hell you might even be able to pull off UVA. MyLSN.info is really useful but remember to throw apps to a lot of T14s, nowadays those WL's give you pretty decent chances of getting accepted, especially as more and more applicants choose slightly lower ranked schools for higher schollys. What's your ideal debt level?

A 4 point increase from 165->169 is SUBSTANTIAL and very impressive, and you should be very proud of yourself.

radar714 wrote:

Milk Man wrote:Thanks Archangel, awesome answer. Thanks Nova, super helpful.

Looks like I'd have a pretty good shot at Georgetown. The only problem is the likelihood of scholarship $. Is being at median enough to get some money? I don't think Georgetown was particularly generous this past cycle.

Gtown is notoriously stingy, so definitely don't count on them to come through with a lot of money. Dude if you can retake and get a couple more points you're in at cornell with at least 50% scholly, and you'll probably get in now with something anyway. Your GPA is good and will put you above a handful of medians as is your LSAT score. If you're debt averse and want to end up in seattle, full-ride to UW isn't a bad choice and with COL taken care of you'll be debt free, but you'll pretty much be saying bye-bye to biglaw. With your stats I feel like you'd be in contention for full-ride to GWU if you want DC(can any1 confirm this?), but biglaw chances are still ~25% and inflated by IP people.

You're going to get into some great schools. Go to the Applicants threads for the Lower T14 and take a look at the insane waitlist activity...it bodes incredibly well for you in the upcoming cycle. Duke, NU, Cornell, Gtown, are all in serious contention. Hell you might even be able to pull off UVA. MyLSN.info is really useful but remember to throw apps to a lot of T14s, nowadays those WL's give you pretty decent chances of getting accepted, especially as more and more applicants choose slightly lower ranked schools for higher schollys. What's your ideal debt level?

A 4 point increase from 165->169 is SUBSTANTIAL and very impressive, and you should be very proud of yourself.

Thanks, I appreciate that. I wouldn't say I'm too debt averse. I would like to stay under $150,000. I have a guaranteed rommate in my girlfriend which really helps with cost of living.

Is a third retake viewed negatively at the lower t14, or do they not care as much as HYS?

LSN says you have a good shot at Michigan and Duke, and you're an auto-admit at Cornell and Georgetown.

If you want Seattle, stay at Washington. Anything else, retake and reapply.

Milk Man wrote: Is a third retake viewed negatively at the lower t14, or do they not care as much as HYS?

nah won't hurt you at all all these schools (except YS, maybe HC) don't give a fuck about you as a person and only care about those 6 digits X.XX/XXX. Now don't let your perverted mind turn that into something sexual and go sign up for october

Lower T14s don't care about a third take, believe me

If this were me I would probably tell UW they need to give you a full ride or you're withdrawing. When and if they don't I would just enjoy life at a T14 next cycle.

Milk Man wrote: Is a third retake viewed negatively at the lower t14, or do they not care as much as HYS?

No clue about YS. H has accepted someone off the WL this cycle with 3 takes, but you have to have at least good WE to give them reason to still consider you and also give them a good reason as to why take #3 is more indicative of your abilities.

Columbia def does admit people who have taken the lsat 3 times.

Milk Man wrote:Is a third retake viewed negatively at the lower t14, or do they not care as much as HYS?

I can attest that at least Cornell doesn't.

I'd say retake, but UW at less than 80k is very nice. That said, an October retake with a 170 or 171 should get you into Penn (though my inner Penn Troll is coming out you did note it's a school you'd like due to location ) with no problems (and with a 171, you'll almost certainly get some money). Philly CoL is really low (compared to NU and NYU/Columbia) and you can definitely find an apartment near campus in a good area for cheap (I'm getting away with a 2bed/2bath doorman building with washer dryer in room for $1200 a month. It gets much better from there). Plus, if you retake and end up with a great score, UW may increase your scholly to a full ride, allowing you to go to the best law school in the region you want to be in for almost free. As is, you've got a set of great options ahead of you and you really can't make a bad choice, but of your options, I think a retake is a better one.

I'd probably just take the money and stay in Seattle. Even if you crack the T14 next year, you'll have more debt, and DC biglaw isn't anything you can bank on. (Fed govt even less so these days.) Most likely outcome is you'd just end up in a NYC biglaw firm, and frankly I'd rather just stay in the northwest if I were you. I think for your situation, you're in about as good a spot as it gets, honestly.

As a related point of general interest, total June LSAT administrations were down nearly 5% from last year. This is the first solid piece of evidence that the application collapse hasn't bottomed yet.

Dude I got money to Duke with 3.5, 164/169 and I applied late in the cycle. Absolutely retake and reapply. You will get $$ to T14s even if you do not improve your score.

EDIT: And you want BigLaw/BigFed. C'mon.

Paul Campos wrote:As a related point of general interest, total June LSAT administrations were down nearly 5% from last year. This is the first solid piece of evidence that the application collapse hasn't bottomed yet.

Also, big thank you to Paul Campos for helping me realize that I needed to retake.

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:Dude I got money to Duke with 3.5, 164/169 and I applied late in the cycle. Absolutely retake and reapply. You will get $$ to T14s even if you do not improve your score.

EDIT: And you want BigLaw/BigFed. C'mon.

So it seems like I'm looking at the choice between a better shot at big law/fed with a T14 or a better shot at employment in Seattle with UW. I guess I bettter decide which one I'd rather shoot for. Am I wrong in thinking that UW would probably help me more in the Seattle market than any of the lower T14s?

Milk Man wrote:

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:Dude I got money to Duke with 3.5, 164/169 and I applied late in the cycle. Absolutely retake and reapply. You will get $$ to T14s even if you do not improve your score.

EDIT: And you want BigLaw/BigFed. C'mon.

So it seems like I'm looking at the choice between a better shot at big law/fed with a T14 or a better shot at employment in Seattle with UW. I guess I bettter decide which one I'd rather shoot for. Am I wrong in thinking that UW would probably help me more in the Seattle market than any of the lower T14s?

For like defending DUIs and stuff? Sure. Any time you can network with small firms and the like (when you have to pursue that type of work or if you just want that type of work) then of course it's better to be local than on the other side of the country.

Milk Man wrote:

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:Dude I got money to Duke with 3.5, 164/169 and I applied late in the cycle. Absolutely retake and reapply. You will get $$ to T14s even if you do not improve your score.

EDIT: And you want BigLaw/BigFed. C'mon.

So it seems like I'm looking at the choice between a better shot at big law/fed with a T14 or a better shot at employment in Seattle with UW. I guess I bettter decide which one I'd rather shoot for. Am I wrong in thinking that UW would probably help me more in the Seattle market than any of the lower T14s?

I think regardles of whether you want (1) BigLaw/BigFed or (2) exclusively Seattle employment, the best T14 for the least money is the credited response. UW places about 10% of its grads in 100+ firms (which is a generous overstatement of "BigLaw") and Fed Clerkships. So, to have a good shot at a good quality legal job from UW, you gotta be around top 10% / top 15% in your class. Nearly all these jobs are in the Northwest -- likely very hard to go elsewhere.

Lets take Duke for example (since I remember the #s, lower-T14, places fairly well in DC, and you have a very good shot at acceptance). About 65% of the class of 2011 got BigLaw or Fed Clerkships. Now, if after 3 years in Durham you KNOW you want to go back to Seattle, you will have to hustle and network to get back there. But you already have the regional tie to convince an employer in an interview ("Love Seattle, left for Duke, which made me realize this is where I want to be"). And furthermore, who does an BigLaw employer in Seattle want to hire -- median at UW or median at Duke with a tie to Seattle? Neither is a slam dunk but at Duke you at least have a chance. We know that median at UW does not get you BigLaw, anywhere.

You owe it to yourself to find out what options and scholarships you can get from the T14. If you don't like them, they are still effective bargaining chips for UW next year. You owe it to yourself to retake/reapply.

Keep in mind that your best option if you reapply will probably be Cornell, Duke, Michigan, or UVA with some money. You said you need to be in a big city for your girlfriend. If you improve enough to get Penn, NYU, Chicago, or Columbia you're fine. If not, you're looking at some (relatively) small towns. Georgetown is always a little risky, but Northwestern might be a great fit for you if you have some work experience. Idk much about Northwestern, but I would imagine a 170 or a 171 would get you some good money there.