WUSTL($$$$) vs. Northwestern ($) Forum

[Robespierre]

at people parroting LST big firm percentages as your odds at biglaw. Odds at NU are probably around 70%, provided you are any good at OCI.

If you are getting to 70% by taking the percentage of people who get 100+ firms and fed clerkships and dividing by the percentage of people who want such things, then you'd have to do the same analysis for WUSTL. And I believe you'd get to roughly 35%. Is the difference between 35% and 70% worth 185K in additional debt? That's the issue.

[Samara]

at people parroting LST big firm percentages as your odds at biglaw. Odds at NU are probably around 70%, provided you are any good at OCI.

If you are getting to 70% by taking the percentage of people who get 100+ firms and fed clerkships and dividing by the percentage of people who want such things, then you'd have to do the same analysis for WUSTL. And I believe you'd get to roughly 35%. Is the difference between 35% and 70% worth 185K in additional debt? That's the issue.

That's not how I'm getting my number, but I agree with your general conclusion. Don't know i that is accurate for WUSTL, but it sounds about right.

[you'rethemannowdawg]

I made a similar choice and chose NU because I had no desire to work in the non-Chicago Midwest. That said, there is a decently high chance (roughly 1/3) that you will get screwed with enormous debt. I took that risk since my prelaw prospects were dead end. It probably wasn't safe or rational, but for super splitters there really are no good choices, only lots of bad ones.

+1

[DoveBodyWash]

lol we're almost numbers twins, my GPA is slightly higher. And I was facing this exact same decision, except it was before WUSTL started making it rain so i was looking at 120k from WUSTL as opposed to full-ride. Given your career goals I'd say NU here. I chose WUSTL because i'm not gunning for BigLaw and I'm really flexible on where i end up geographically

[Robespierre]

at people parroting LST big firm percentages as your odds at biglaw. Odds at NU are probably around 70%, provided you are any good at OCI.

If you are getting to 70% by taking the percentage of people who get 100+ firms and fed clerkships and dividing by the percentage of people who want such things, then you'd have to do the same analysis for WUSTL. And I believe you'd get to roughly 35%. Is the difference between 35% and 70% worth 185K in additional debt? That's the issue.

That's not how I'm getting my number, but I agree with your general conclusion. Don't know i that is accurate for WUSTL, but it sounds about right.

Ok. But how are you getting to 70% then? I'm just curious. I will NOT dispute it with you; just really curious since I respect your work so much based on your How To Be A Splitter paper. Thanks.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

General point worth repeating: The LST percentages for Biglaw+FedClerk are a floor, not a ceiling.

[jdb2013]

deposited nu, thanks for the input everyone!

[Samara]

at people parroting LST big firm percentages as your odds at biglaw. Odds at NU are probably around 70%, provided you are any good at OCI.

If you are getting to 70% by taking the percentage of people who get 100+ firms and fed clerkships and dividing by the percentage of people who want such things, then you'd have to do the same analysis for WUSTL. And I believe you'd get to roughly 35%. Is the difference between 35% and 70% worth 185K in additional debt? That's the issue.

That's not how I'm getting my number, but I agree with your general conclusion. Don't know i that is accurate for WUSTL, but it sounds about right.

Ok. But how are you getting to 70% then? I'm just curious. I will NOT dispute it with you; just really curious since I respect your work so much based on your How To Be A Splitter paper. Thanks.

haha, thanks. IAFG did a pretty good breakdown in a different thread recently. Long story short, NU's published salary data gives something like 60-65% making market or close to it. That's going to include boutiques and high-paying business positions in addition to big firms. Throw in clerkships, JD/MBAs pursuing things like startups, and a few people self-selecting into PI/gov/etc. and you're looking at 70-75% as "big law capable." DF also had some good posts recently about how even the "bad outcomes" at NU aren't horrible. Unless the economy crashes or you completely aspie up your job search, odds are very strong you'll find something.

[Robespierre]

^ OK solid. Thanks brah.

And good luck to the OP at NU.

[romothesavior]

+1. NU is more likely to get you to your goals OP. There's obviously risk involved but IMO is risk worth taking.

It's not just about the risk. Obviously if you miss biglaw or a solid IBR-job, you're boned. But even the people who land biglaw could get pounded hard if they don't last long in those jobs, which many don't. I get a little annoyed at how people talk about debt on here as being "worth it for the higher odds," as if that ends the conversation. Yes, its a huge factor... you're probably doubling your biglaw/clerkship chances by going to NW instead of WUSTL. But it's not like a roulette table, where if the little ball lands on "K&L Gates" or "DLA Piper" you're a winner and you get to cash in your chips for a big instant payday. $250,000 in debt can turn into 10+ years of big checks to Uncle Sam each month, and it will be easily turn into over $300,000 in total repayment, probably more like $400,000. That's even if you get lucky and land biglaw for a few years. What if you get axed early in your career? You're toast. Or what if you want to go in-house or lateral to a smaller firm with better hours but lower pay? You just tacked on years to your repayment. And if you hate the law? Forget it, you're pretty much stuck.

I have about half the debt OP is looking at and I have a secondary market biglaw job in a very cheap city. Even under the best-case scenario (bonuses, high monthly contribution to service my debt, etc.), it will likely take me around 7 years to pay off my debt. If I stay at my soon-to-be first firm, it'd take me until I'm almost up for partnership to pay off my debt. It's scary shit. I know I'm not likely to stay there for that long. Now 1) increase my firm's turnover (its a lot lower than an NYC firm) and 2) double my debt. I'm shakin' in my boots at the thought.

I'm not saying lower-debt is always the right path, And I'm not 100% saying OP should go to WUSTL. I see both sides of the argument (i.e., I thought robespierre was really underestimating the power of an NW degree... it's very strong, and most people who want biglaw will get it). But I really want 0Ls to contemplate the debt they're taking on, because its easy to look past it. The difference in total repayment between the schools we're talking about now is about that of a house, and there are many ways (not just missing OCI) that a person can be crippled financially by that kind of debt.

[sinfiery]

Your post made me go check and NYU at sticker is officially over $300,000 COA owed when you graduate for the class of 2016.

[Samara]

^ Excellent post.

Going the high-debt route means that when you win the ice-cream eating contest, you no choice but to choke down the ice cream prize. If you go the low-debt route, you may have less of a chance of winning, but maybe also you don't have to eat the ice cream, or at least not so much of it. Everyone should be sure to think about this from all angles before making their decision and not just consider employment scores.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Your post made me go check and NYU at sticker is officially over $300,000 COA owed when you graduate for the class of 2016.

Holy nerts.

I was not the only one who thought schools would be a little hesitant to shoot past $50k in tuition. I mean, how could school cost more than what the median family makes in a year?

Is there another industry where the majority of buyers are financed by six-figure loans yet it is a bad idea to purchase at the advertised price from such a high percentage of sellers? I say there are 15-20 schools where sticker is not indefensible (out of 203) and that's seen as a criminally high number-- the only argument over positing that you should absolutely not pay sticker at 90-93% is that that percentage is too low. Sorry for the minor OT but $300k is just...wow.

[you'rethemannowdawg]

Your post made me go check and NYU at sticker is officially over $300,000 COA owed when you graduate for the class of 2016.

Holy nerts.

I was not the only one who thought schools would be a little hesitant to shoot past $50k in tuition. I mean, how could school cost more than what the median family makes in a year?

Is there another industry where the majority of buyers are financed by six-figure loans yet it is a bad idea to purchase at the advertised price from such a higher percentage of sellers? I say there are 15-20 schools where sticker is not indefensible (out of 203) and that's seen as a criminally high number-- the only argument over positing that you should absolutely not pay sticker at 90-93% is that that percentage is too low. Sorry for the minor OT but $300k is just...wow.

CLS is over 300k as well with the new numbers. It will keep going up until people stop paying it. Although from what I've seen it's pretty easy to live a good deal under the schools' COA estimates.

[DoveBodyWash]

Your post made me go check and NYU at sticker is officially over $300,000 COA owed when you graduate for the class of 2016.

[romothesavior]

^ Excellent post.

Going the high-debt route means that when you win the ice-cream eating contest, you no choice but to choke down the ice cream prize. If you go the low-debt route, you may have less of a chance of winning, but maybe also you don't have to eat the ice cream, or at least not so much of it. Everyone should be sure to think about this from all angles before making their decision and not just consider employment scores.

And there's also this: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/07/is-bigla ... go-weiled/

If you get your offer pulled or get canned early in your career, it won't make much difference if you "won" at OCI. A ton of people land biglaw and then see un/underemployed after they get the boot. Even the winners very often turn out to be losers, and its amplified by many degrees when you have that kind of debt.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Your post made me go check and NYU at sticker is officially over $300,000 COA owed when you graduate for the class of 2016.

Holy nerts.

I was not the only one who thought schools would be a little hesitant to shoot past $50k in tuition. I mean, how could school cost more than what the median family makes in a year?

Is there another industry where the majority of buyers are financed by six-figure loans yet it is a bad idea to purchase at the advertised price from such a higher percentage of sellers? I say there are 15-20 schools where sticker is not indefensible (out of 203) and that's seen as a criminally high number-- the only argument over positing that you should absolutely not pay sticker at 90-93% is that that percentage is too low. Sorry for the minor OT but $300k is just...wow.

CLS is over 300k as well with the new numbers. It will keep going up until people stop paying it. Although from what I've seen it's pretty easy to live a good deal under the schools' COA estimates.

It's weird. I was preparing to come in pretty significantly under UVA's living budget with a 500+ sq ft 1 BR. I have a 320ish sq ft studio at CLS and I'm going to come WAY over their living budget. I don't know what to believe about the accuracy of those any more.

[you'rethemannowdawg]

It's weird. I was preparing to come in pretty significantly under UVA's living budget with a 500+ sq ft 1 BR. I have a 320ish sq ft studio at CLS and I'm going to come WAY over their living budget. I don't know what to believe about the accuracy of those any more.

I have no idea how they're computed. I currently live in NYC and I spend far less than the amount CLS budgets for living expenses.

[jbagelboy]

It's weird. I was preparing to come in pretty significantly under UVA's living budget with a 500+ sq ft 1 BR. I have a 320ish sq ft studio at CLS and I'm going to come WAY over their living budget. I don't know what to believe about the accuracy of those any more.

I have no idea how they're computed. I currently live in NYC and I spend far less than the amount CLS budgets for living expenses.

Its typically understood that CLS actually overstates their CoA. My own calculations based on my actual rent/fees/food estimate (based on NYC CPI vs socal CPI and applying a multiplier to my avg monthly expensiture now) came to ~76K/year (before scholarship deductions) rather than the 82K they provide. It depends on a lot of personal factors and habits, I suppose. Someone could use beefeater instead of bombay for G&Ts and cut another $30/month.

[you'rethemannowdawg]

It's weird. I was preparing to come in pretty significantly under UVA's living budget with a 500+ sq ft 1 BR. I have a 320ish sq ft studio at CLS and I'm going to come WAY over their living budget. I don't know what to believe about the accuracy of those any more.

I have no idea how they're computed. I currently live in NYC and I spend far less than the amount CLS budgets for living expenses.

Its typically understood that CLS actually overstates their CoA. My own calculations based on my actual rent/fees/food estimate (based on NYC CPI vs socal CPI and applying a multiplier to my avg monthly expensiture now) came to ~76K/year (before scholarship deductions) rather than the 82K they provide. It depends on a lot of personal factors and habits, I suppose. Someone could use beefeater instead of bombay for G&Ts and cut another $30/month.

Psh. I suppose I could stop putting saffron in my scrambled eggs, too, but that's no way to live.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Its typically understood that CLS actually overstates their CoA. My own calculations based on my actual rent/fees/food estimate (based on NYC CPI vs socal CPI and applying a multiplier to my avg monthly expensiture now) came to ~76K/year (before scholarship deductions) rather than the 82K they provide.

I'm looking at probably over $85k even though I already have my parents' health insurance and I have a discretionary budget (absent housing, food, and laundry/dry cleaning) of almost nil.

Side note: Can someone translate when "rental price per square foot" means in common parlance? For instance, Google says Manhattan is $50/sq ft, but obviously if you divide the monthly rent by the square footage of an apartment you'll get a much lower number. What am I missing?

Someone could use beefeater instead of bombay for G&Ts and cut another $30/month.

In VA Beefeater is $10 cheaper per handle. How much effing gin are you drinking a month?

[Robespierre]

"Side note: Can someone translate when "rental price per square foot" means in common parlance? For instance, Google says Manhattan is $50/sq ft, but obviously if you divide the monthly rent by the square footage of an apartment you'll get a much lower number. What am I missing? "

600 sq ft apartment in a good neighborhood will cost you about 30K rent per year (not month). $30,000/600 = $50.

[jbagelboy]

"Side note: Can someone translate when "rental price per square foot" means in common parlance? For instance, Google says Manhattan is $50/sq ft, but obviously if you divide the monthly rent by the square footage of an apartment you'll get a much lower number. What am I missing? "

600 sq ft apartment in a good neighborhood will cost you about 30K rent per year (not month). $30,000/600 = $50.

So lionsgate at CLS is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the Manhattan rent price. Thats some bullshit

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

"Side note: Can someone translate when "rental price per square foot" means in common parlance? For instance, Google says Manhattan is $50/sq ft, but obviously if you divide the monthly rent by the square footage of an apartment you'll get a much lower number. What am I missing? "

600 sq ft apartment in a good neighborhood will cost you about 30K rent per year (not month). $30,000/600 = $50.

So lionsgate at CLS is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the Manhattan rent price. Thats some bullshit

My 325ish sq ft apartment is $2k per month. On a 12-month basis, that would be 24k/325 = $73.85. Not only is that significantly over the Manhattan average, but it's also in what's supposed to be a cheaper area of Manhattan--forget that BS about it being "subsidized" by the school.

Well, that's just swell.

[romothesavior]

Lol @ a 300 sq foot apartment. NYC is such a joke.

<--- 850 sq. foot apartment in a great high rise building a block from my office for less than a grand.