Top Law Schools

Many of you have made your final decisions for next year and I hope that LST helped you make an informed one. But now that you've decided, I hope you introduce yourself to the other aspects of LST besides the Score Reports. You all have long careers ahead of you, and I hope you all keep engaged with the issues facing our profession. To do so...

1) Like the LST fan page on Facebook: http://facebook.com/LawSchoolTransparency The page will include updates about LST initiatives, links to LST staff writings, and articles related to legal education and the legal profession. Probably some other stuff too. We just started this a few days ago and we are trying to grow the fanbase before we approach pre-law societies and pre-law advisers with the page. There are still people who do not know what LST does, nor know the resources we offer, and reaching them will be easier if they know we're relevant with you all. Share the page among your friends too, if you're so inclined.

2) Follow LST on twitter @LSTupdates

3) Donate $20 to LST to help us out. Okay, this won't help you keep engaged, but we need it! https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?c ... EUMGQPSLP4 We're working on several revenue streams right now, including a major donor program and Trustees Council. But in the meantime, all donations will help us spread the website's footprint and help us to hold law schools and the ABA accountable for their actions. We're finally taking the plunge and applying for our 501(c)3 determination [we've always been a non-profit, but never had the need to pay the IRS a giant sum], so donations will be tax-deductible from the date of incorporation.

Keep on linkin' us. You're doing our profession a favor when you do.

FB says you planned LST in a bar?

Yall sound fun

JK bros LST is the best

http://lawschooltransparency.com/

LST is awesome!

Just "liked" LST's FB page

rad, we planned LST in a bunch of places. Golden Corral, the VULS library, the VULS basement, PP, Patrick's deck, and I think playing Mario Kart one time.

jenesaislaw wrote:rad, we planned LST in a bunch of places. Golden Corral, the VULS library, the VULS basement, PP, Patrick's deck, and I think playing Mario Kart one time.

Yall definitely need to poast some pics of those locations on the LST page

The fans want to know where it all began

Also what is your favorite Mario Kart character

jenesaislaw wrote:rad, we planned LST in a bunch of places. Golden Corral, the VULS library, the VULS basement, PP, Patrick's deck, and I think playing Mario Kart one time.

64 or cube?

I think it was N64, though I always preferred the Gamecube and Wii versions. Also pretty sure he kicked my ass.

Favorite character was Toad on N64. Partial to Koopa on Wii.

Just posted this on the FB page:

Interesting statistic from NALP:

"Of employed graduates from the Class of 2012, about 23% were seeking a different job ... The extent to which employed graduates are seeking a different job varies by the kind of job held and by graduate demographics. For example, about 43% of graduates with a job for which a JD was an advantage were seeking a different job, compared to 15% of those with a job requiring bar passage."

jenesaislaw wrote:Just posted this on the FB page:

Interesting statistic from NALP:

"Of employed graduates from the Class of 2012, about 23% were seeking a different job ... The extent to which employed graduates are seeking a different job varies by the kind of job held and by graduate demographics. For example, about 43% of graduates with a job for which a JD was an advantage were seeking a different job, compared to 15% of those with a job requiring bar passage."

Didn't Campos poast something similar late last year on OTLSS?

His analysis also suggested that JD Preferred jobs were unsatisfying fallbacks

It was Debby Merritt. But yes, she looked at data over the last decade, including the class of 2011. Class of 2012 is more of the same. People just aren't as satisfied in the non-law jobs.

jenesaislaw wrote:It was Debby Merritt. But yes, she looked at data over the last decade, including the class of 2011. Class of 2012 is more of the same. People just aren't as satisfied in the non-law jobs.

Yeah that data really tends to undercut the law deans and vindicates those with common sense

"Our degree is valuable in MANY fields and many of our students come here to get our degree to go into those fields, not law."

lol ok Deans

What exactly constitutes a "JD advantage" job? If I were hiring baristas or something, I might use a JD as a tiebreaker for two indistinguishable applicants at the same salary. How much real weight is there to helping an applicant get a job that isn't that tough to get in the first place?

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:What exactly constitutes a "JD advantage" job? If I were hiring baristas or something, I might use a JD as a tiebreaker for two indistinguishable applicants at the same salary. How much real weight is there to helping an applicant get a job that isn't that tough to get in the first place?

McKinsey

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:What exactly constitutes a "JD advantage" job? If I were hiring baristas or something, I might use a JD as a tiebreaker for two indistinguishable applicants at the same salary. How much real weight is there to helping an applicant get a job that isn't that tough to get in the first place?

Via the ABA:

A position in this category is one for which the employer sought an individual with a J.D., and perhaps even required a J.D., or for which the J.D. provided a demonstrable advantage in obtaining or performing the job, but which does not itself require bar passage or an active law license or involve practicing law. Examples of positions for which a J.D. is an advantage include a corporate contracts administrator, alternative dispute resolution specialist, government regulatory analyst, FBI agent, and accountant. Also included might be jobs in personnel or human resources, jobs with investment banks, jobs with consulting firms, jobs doing compliance work in business and industry, jobs in law firm professional development, and jobs in law school career services offices, admissions offices, or other law school administrative offices. Doctors or nurses who plan to work in a litigation, insurance, or risk management setting, or as expert witnesses, would fall into this category, as would journalists and teachers (in a higher education setting) of law and law related topics. It is an indicator that a position does not fall into this category if a J.D. is uncommon among persons holding such a position.

I guess the possible interpretation of JD advantage is very loose. I wouldn't call an accountant a "JD advantage" job; I don't think the everyday work has much more to do with law than anything else. What constitutes it being "uncommon" to hold a JD at a position?

There are no guidelines for what's common. It's a garbage category. I've known paralegals to be counted in the category. Provides an advantage at doing the job, right?

As for accountants, I have no idea how that made it in there. Maybe LinkedIn has some data on this (it'd be private or for a fee).

jenesaislaw wrote:There are no guidelines for what's common. It's a garbage category. I've known paralegals to be counted in the category. Provides an advantage at doing the job, right?

As for accountants, I have no idea how that made it in there. Maybe LinkedIn has some data on this (it'd be private or for a fee).

The Big 4 recruit JDs, mostly from the Tax LLM programs.

a) For accountant positions or other positions?
b) Should the Big 4 hiring JDs to be accountants be enough to make it common? Answer from the perspective of somebody writing a data collection rule that applies to all schools.

jenesaislaw wrote:a) For accountant positions or other positions?
b) Should the Big 4 hiring JDs to be accountants be enough to make it common? Answer from the perspective of somebody writing a data collection rule that applies to all schools.

This is what really makes JD Advantage a garbage category. You get JD/MBAs out of top programs going to MBB consulting firms, which most would agree is equivalent to big law; and then you get the paralegals from your example. Really though pretty much every category suffers from similar problems. There are boutique firms that are more selective than most traditional big law firms, but when students take jobs there they get thrown in the presumed shitlaw category. And there are firms with >500 lawyers that don't make the Vault rankings and don't pay market.

Bottom line is for any specific school you're serious about you have to dig in the weeds. There isn't enough transparency to do this to the extent that we can avoid all of the problems with categorizing jobs like I just outlined, but you can get some pretty good info from sources like the NLJ 250 breakdown by school/firm. Other than that a lot of the "in the weeds" data becomes anecdotal unless you can be thorough enough.

But it isn't on me to fix this problem, GL janesaislaw

jenesaislaw wrote:a) For accountant positions or other positions?
b) Should the Big 4 hiring JDs to be accountants be enough to make it common? Answer from the perspective of somebody writing a data collection rule that applies to all schools.

a) I believe for accounting positions, though I don't really know how accounting firms operate. I know a few CPAs at my law school. If they struck out at OCI, they could go (back) to the Big 4 pretty easily. But they hire non-CPAs as well. People in the tax program here who came here for the LLM because they couldn't get a job sometimes end up there as well. They do "tax stuff" so I assume they're accountants or something substantially similar.

b) I think it's common enough to count it under JD Advantage, but I agree that JD Advantage is a garbage category. I have no accounting background, but if I completed the Tax LLM degree, I could get a job at an accounting firm. I guess that's technically LLM Advantage, but it's a job I couldn't get if I didn't go to law school.

To sort of address the above poster, I'm at a school with a top tax program (LOL) so I'm sure it's different than for other schools. But that's also why Bar Passage Required is an equally worthless statistic.

jenesaislaw wrote:a) For accountant positions or other positions?
b) Should the Big 4 hiring JDs to be accountants be enough to make it common? Answer from the perspective of somebody writing a data collection rule that applies to all schools.

I looked into getting one of these jobs my 3L year with just my JD because I liked tax. I talked to couple people about it.

With just the JD you basically gotta have an undergrad business school degree, preferably accounting, to be competitive for Big4 and Grant Thornton (those were the only ones I checked). Of the people I know that got hired with JD only, none of em were as traditional tax or audit accountants. I have heard of people getting into the consulting part of those firms and one dude I talked to got transfer pricing, but big4 is seriously uncommon.

Also of the people I talked to (small sample fo 2-3 people) all of them were happy to have a job but it was not what they came to law school for and they applied to law jobs first.

rad lulz wrote:

jenesaislaw wrote:a) For accountant positions or other positions?
b) Should the Big 4 hiring JDs to be accountants be enough to make it common? Answer from the perspective of somebody writing a data collection rule that applies to all schools.

I looked into getting one of these jobs my 3L year with just my JD because I liked tax. I talked to couple people about it.

With just the JD you basically gotta have an undergrad business school degree, preferably accounting, to be competitive for Big4 and Grant Thornton (those were the only ones I checked). Of the people I know that got hired with JD only, none of em were as accountants. I have heard of people getting into the consulting part of those firms and one dude I talked to got transfer pricing, but big4 is seriously uncommon.

Also of the people I talked to (small sample fo 2-3 people) all of them were happy to have a job but it was not what they came to law school for and they applied to law jobs first.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Like I said, I don't really know what accounting firms do or what counts as "accountant."

The people I talked to about this said the same thing, so it's certainly not a preferred outcome. And if you go to a top school with an accounting background, there's a very good chance you'll get a better offer.

Samara wrote:To sort of address the above poster, I'm at a school with a top tax program (LOL) so I'm sure it's different than for other schools. But that's also why Bar Passage Required is an equally worthless statistic.

I was actually alluding to what D Rod said when I brought up JD/MBAs going to MBB firms

Samara wrote:

rad lulz wrote:

jenesaislaw wrote:a) For accountant positions or other positions?
b) Should the Big 4 hiring JDs to be accountants be enough to make it common? Answer from the perspective of somebody writing a data collection rule that applies to all schools.

I looked into getting one of these jobs my 3L year with just my JD because I liked tax. I talked to couple people about it.

With just the JD you basically gotta have an undergrad business school degree, preferably accounting, to be competitive for Big4 and Grant Thornton (those were the only ones I checked). Of the people I know that got hired with JD only, none of em were as accountants. I have heard of people getting into the consulting part of those firms and one dude I talked to got transfer pricing, but big4 is seriously uncommon.

Also of the people I talked to (small sample fo 2-3 people) all of them were happy to have a job but it was not what they came to law school for and they applied to law jobs first.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Like I said, I don't really know what accounting firms do or what counts as "accountant."

The people I talked to about this said the same thing, so it's certainly not a preferred outcome. And if you go to a top school with an accounting background, there's a very good chance you'll get a better offer.

Sorry by "as accountants" I mean as "as tax accountants." I don't know anyone who tried to get a job in or got a job in audit. Working in transfer pricing is a special type of tax so yeah that's an accountant (though not what immediately comes to mind when you think "accounting"), but you certainly don't need the JD and I don't think I could have taken a class on transfer pricing in law school if I wanted to. The dude I talked to about it said to express interest in that area because it was probably the most related to tax without being in the "tax" group, it's growing, and not a lot of people express interest in it.

Cobretti wrote:

Samara wrote:To sort of address the above poster, I'm at a school with a top tax program (LOL) so I'm sure it's different than for other schools. But that's also why Bar Passage Required is an equally worthless statistic.

I was actually alluding to what D Rod said when I brought up JD/MBAs going to MBB firms

Right, and by the same token, the opportunities with a Tax LLM from NYU/Florida/GULC//////NU are different from the opportunities from other schools' tax programs.

Basically, it's all crap and good on LST for trying to make it better.