Top Law Schools

Hey everybody.

After some negotiations, my two school finalists are:
ASU - I pay about 11.5k per year
UofA - I pay 10k per year

I went to UofA for undergrad, and have a real good sense of the school and city. Im from Phoenix, so I also have a decent sense of ASU and Tempe. ASU has consistantly been ranked higher than UofA over the last few years, even though traditionally UofA has dominated ASU the previous 20 years or so. However, even though consensus is that ASU is a better school, UofA has significantly better employment statistics. ASU also hires about 9% of its students, which some people look down on. Also, Im worried about ASU's quick rise. Are they here to stay? Was their rise justified?

I guess my question is which school is really better? its hard to argue ASU is better when 2012 employment statistics say UofA is better. External reasons aside (the city, my friends and family, the facilities), is ASU really worth paying the extra 1.5k per year? is it actually better? Im having a really hard time with this decision, as the offers are so close, and both are good schools. Any imput is appreciated!

Ghostwriter574 wrote:even though consensus is that ASU is a better school

There is no such "consensus." The fact that ASU does a better job of playing strumpet for USNWR rankings means nothing. The people doing the hiring out of these two schools have not changed their opinions one scintilla on the basis of this rankings harlotry.

UofA has significantly better employment statistics.

I'll take your word for it. If that's the case, then you have your answer.

Also, Im worried about ASU's quick rise. Are they here to stay? Was their rise justified?

It bears repeating: there has been no "rise." ASU is the exact same school it was three years ago. They've managed to draw some USNWR-worshipping suckers with slightly better numbers (while cutting their class size), but this is not going to turn into some unstoppable feedback loop that rockets ASU into the T6. ASU is and will continue to be a local school, and local employers don't care about their gaming of the rankings.

Saying both are "good" is a bit of a stretch IMO. But if your COA is really only between 30-40K then pick your favorite or flip a coin.

Both schools are "good" for practice in Arizona and their degrees sell well here in New Mexico, too. I imagine a well-ranked grad from either school could compete in Nevada and maybe Colorado but I have no experience as to that. Outside these states...maybe another school would be best?

Just for Quality of Life, though, I'd go for Tucson.

BigZuck wrote:Saying both are "good" is a bit of a stretch IMO. But if your COA is really only between 30-40K then pick your favorite or flip a coin.

They're perfectly good if you want to work in Arizona. Granted, OP doesn't say this, so if they're trying to fly the coop, no, they're not good options. For working in Arizona at that price, I think they're pretty decent options - but as everyone has suggested, there's no real difference to speak of between the two, and if U of A has better employment numbers, I'd go there. (But I'm also pro-Tucson.)

U of A places a little bit better. But the cost difference is low and the placement statistics are pretty similar. Presuming you are okay with practicing in Arizona forever, pick your favorite.

Bros- 60-65ish placement into lawyer jobs isn't objectively "good." Comparatively, maybe. But there's still about a 3rd of the class wasting their life and money. That sucks. Thinking both schools are good options is a boomerish mentality that is silly and harmful to the discourse.

Anyway as long as the OP is willing to gamble three years and 40ishK to try and become a lawyer at a small firm in AZ I think either are reasonable.

BigZuck wrote:Bros- 60-65ish placement into lawyer jobs isn't objectively "good." Comparatively, maybe. But there's still about a 3rd of the class wasting their life and money. That sucks. Thinking both schools are good options is a boomerish mentality that is silly and harmful to the discourse.

Anyway as long as the OP is willing to gamble three years and 40ishK to try and become a lawyer at a small firm in AZ I think either are reasonable.

Do you get the concept of the strong regional school at all? That's pretty much what they look like.

I guess maybe I am underselling both schools considering that perhaps a reason why a decent percentage of the class is not becoming lawyer is because they are targeting states other than AZ. On this site in particular you see a fair amout of people hoping to attend a school like ASU and back door DAT RANKING into a job in Los Angeles. If perhaps one tempers their expectations and really goes after the market these schools actually place into they have more than a 2/3 chance of becoming a lawyer.

But as sinfiery would say, the data is shit and we have no way of knowing why people are striking out.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

BigZuck wrote:Bros- 60-65ish placement into lawyer jobs isn't objectively "good." Comparatively, maybe. But there's still about a 3rd of the class wasting their life and money. That sucks. Thinking both schools are good options is a boomerish mentality that is silly and harmful to the discourse.

Anyway as long as the OP is willing to gamble three years and 40ishK to try and become a lawyer at a small firm in AZ I think either are reasonable.

Do you get the concept of the strong regional school at all? That's pretty much what they look like.

What do you mean?

I think words like "strong" and "good" should be reserved for schools that you are pretty certain to become a lawyer if you attend. A school that gives you a 60ish percent change at that still has a ton of kids wasting money and time.

I mean, yes, U of A is probably better at placing their grads than 100 other schools in this country. But just because there's a bunch of shittier schools doesn't mean U of A is doing an objectively good job.

BigZuck wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

BigZuck wrote:Bros- 60-65ish placement into lawyer jobs isn't objectively "good." Comparatively, maybe. But there's still about a 3rd of the class wasting their life and money. That sucks. Thinking both schools are good options is a boomerish mentality that is silly and harmful to the discourse.

Anyway as long as the OP is willing to gamble three years and 40ishK to try and become a lawyer at a small firm in AZ I think either are reasonable.

Do you get the concept of the strong regional school at all? That's pretty much what they look like.

What do you mean?

I think words like "strong" and "good" should be reserved for schools that you are pretty certain to become a lawyer if you attend. A school that gives you a 60ish percent change at that still has a ton of kids wasting money and time.

I mean, yes, U of A is probably better at placing their grads than 100 other schools in this country. But just because there's a bunch of shittier schools doesn't mean U of A is doing an objectively good job.

All I'm saying is that there's a gray area between "pretty certain to become a lawyer" (whatever specific number that means) and "shitty," and strong regionals - especially the state flagship, especially in a market that doesn't have any T14/national schools, especially for as cheap as here - fall into the "good" category. Great? No. But good. (I say this coming out of an extremely similar school/market context and based on the experience of my classmates.) Sure, you may draw the line differently, and it may not be a choice you'd make, but it's not crazy to consider these schools.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

BigZuck wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

BigZuck wrote:Bros- 60-65ish placement into lawyer jobs isn't objectively "good." Comparatively, maybe. But there's still about a 3rd of the class wasting their life and money. That sucks. Thinking both schools are good options is a boomerish mentality that is silly and harmful to the discourse.

Anyway as long as the OP is willing to gamble three years and 40ishK to try and become a lawyer at a small firm in AZ I think either are reasonable.

Do you get the concept of the strong regional school at all? That's pretty much what they look like.

What do you mean?

I think words like "strong" and "good" should be reserved for schools that you are pretty certain to become a lawyer if you attend. A school that gives you a 60ish percent change at that still has a ton of kids wasting money and time.

I mean, yes, U of A is probably better at placing their grads than 100 other schools in this country. But just because there's a bunch of shittier schools doesn't mean U of A is doing an objectively good job.

All I'm saying is that there's a gray area between "pretty certain to become a lawyer" (whatever specific number that means) and "shitty," and strong regionals - especially the state flagship, especially in a market that doesn't have any T14/national schools, especially for as cheap as here - fall into the "good" category. Great? No. But good. (I say this coming out of an extremely similar school/market context and based on the experience of my classmates.) Sure, you may draw the line differently, and it may not be a choice you'd make, but it's not crazy to consider these schools.

And I agreed that both are fine choices to make for the OP considering their situation. I said that multiple times.

It's semantics more than anything and I guess I just take issue with the way that TLS characterizes schools like this. OP has been convinced that these are "good schools" and by that if they think that means that attending=becoming a lawyer then they might be disappointed at the end of their three years. Still a high chance of having nothing to show for their time and 40K.

I have issues with other stuff the boomer said (even if its mostly factually true I think that like saying these schools are "good," saying that doing well means you can carry the degree to other states can lead the OP to think that these choices are better than they really are) but I was mainly taking issue with semantics and that's annoying so I will drop it.

BigZuck wrote:And I agreed that both are fine choices to make for the OP considering their situation. I said that multiple times.

It's semantics more than anything and I guess I just take issue with the way that TLS characterizes schools like this. OP has been convinced that these are "good schools" and by that if they think that means that attending=becoming a lawyer then they might be disappointed at the end of their three years. Still a high chance of having nothing to show for their time and 40K.

I have issues with other stuff the boomer said (even if its mostly factually true I think that like saying these schools are "good," saying that doing well means you can carry the degree to other states can lead the OP to think that these choices are better than they really are) but I was mainly taking issue with semantics and that's annoying so I will drop it.

And sorry to harp on the semantics myself and miss your overall point.

Good points all. One other thing; Despite the lingering economic downturn and that current streak of...well...wacko politics? I still believe that Arizona is a wonderful place to begin a law career. The state has so much going for it that the current rough patch won't last.

University of Arizona > Arizona State. And its cheaper for you. That's my call.

UofA almost universally offers way more merit aid than ASU. I would hit them up for MOAR $$$

ETA: ASU placed 136/212=64.2% into FTLT JD-required jobs, UofA placed 99/149=66.4%. Not sure how you can say one is objectively better than the other, at least in terms of employment. Assuming their offers don't change much, pick whichever one you like best, or flip a coin.

OP here

Sorry guys. I definitely should have included the fact that I want to stay here in Arizona forever. Not one of those people trying to backdoor Cali. Also, to me, these are pretty good options considering I have a 2.9 GPA, and my first 5 LSATS I was scoring 145-150. So just a few months later getting into multiple top 50 schools with good scholarships is good to me. Thats why I said they are good schools, because relatively speaking they are. Especially since I dont care about leaving the state. Thanks for the responses!

Also, as for negotiation, I have already exhausted as much as I could from them. Both sides gave more until the point they said it was their final offer.

Really just choose whichever you prefer, the schools are basically identical. Objectively speaking, U of A sounds like its slightly better.

I am curious how you got your COA at each school so low considering a sub 3.0. You must share, you can be an inspirational story for splitters everywhere.

It's all that competition from the Phoenix Law School, I'll bet!

"Imput"?


I would go to Arizona if I was you although I think ASU is definitely a better law school (look at the rankings) just because you went to U of A for undergrad and would be creating conflicting sports allegiances by going to Arizona State at this point.

DaRascal wrote:"Imput"?


I would go to Arizona if I was you although I think ASU is definitely a better law school (look at the rankings) just because you went to U of A for undergrad and would be creating conflicting sports allegiances by going to Arizona State at this point.

DaRascal wrote:I think ASU is definitely a better law school (look at the rankings)

buddytyler wrote:ASU placed 136/212=64.2% into FTLT JD-required jobs, UofA placed 99/149=66.4%. Not sure how you can say one is objectively better than the other, at least in terms of employment.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=asu
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=arizona

Just feels like Arizona State is on the rise. Don't take my word for it though, I've never been out West before.