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I am completely torn between the two schools right now and am having an incredibly difficult time deciding. Please help me.

Cost is not a consideration. My #1 consideration is employment outcome/location - which school will land me the big firm job in California that I want? (I have not been accepted to Berkeley or Stanford, and I'm not happy with the employment numbers out of UCLA/USC, so this is the choice I'm left with.)

How much better is NYU than Duke in terms of opportunities and employment? Assuming I will have a lower class rank at NYU than at Duke...is it worth it to go to NYU anyway? I went to Duke for undergrad and will have zero adjustment period and will be very comfortable and confident - NYC, on the other hand, scares me, it's a bigger school, more competitive, smarter classmates, tougher competition, and I'm not particularly fond of the city. Basically, I am TERRIFIED that I'm not going to be up to par at NYU like I will be at Duke, and that I'll fall below median and be screwed. Is my fear that I won't do well at NYU compared to Duke silly, or is it warranted? And how much should it affect my decision?

No reason to assume you will be any lower class rank at NYU than you will at Duke. Both have very sharp and intelligent student bodies, and in no way are NYU students smarter or more competitive than Duke students. Not sure why a 2 point difference in LSAT medians would somehow translate to an assumption that you will do better in classes at Duke. That assumption wouldn't be justified even if you compared Duke to a T30, let alone comparing Duke to NYU. And on that basis alone (i.e. all things being equal), def NYU if your main consideration is maximizing your employment outcomes. I know quite a few folks who did their 2L summer positions in CA, since the school is trying hard to build up the alumni base out there. Can't say its super common, but both names travel far, and employers know that both are top schools, regardless of where you search for a job.

If you don't like the city, thats a separate issue. I would go and visit NYU and see how you like the area.

Why is cost not an issue?

But anyway, if that is truly the case take NYU hands down. The only one who is holding you back is yourself.

Micdiddy wrote:But anyway, if that is truly the case take NYU hands down. The only one who is holding you back is yourself.

I agree that OP's concern is unwarranted but why is it NYU hands-down? It sounds like OP prefers Durham to NYC and would be more comfortable at Duke regardless. So instead of asking whether he'll be more likely to end up below median at NYU than at Duke--and I don't think he will unless he's miserable enough at NYU that it will affect his performance--OP should be asking whether NYU has enough of an edge in CA placement that it would be worth it to move to a completely new environment for three years.

The class of 2012 ABA data shows NYU placed 10.4% of graduates in CA and Duke placed 12%. I know placement doesn't equal placement power, and maybe NYU will have more CA firms come to OCI because of the larger class size. NYU may also have a larger alumni base in CA for the same reason. Also, ending up at below median from NYU might give OP a better shot at NYC biglaw than Duke as a fallback option, if OP is open to that.

So I don't think competitiveness should weigh into OP's decision at all, but I also don't think sticking with Duke is a bad choice if OP is really not comfortable with NYC.

They probably place about equally in CA, so I would just compare costs and personal preference.

So about 45 students in NYU's class ended up in CA vs. about 23 Duke students (I just applied the percentages above based on the typical class size at each school). Sure, percentages are about the same, but NYU obviously places more out there year after year, allowing for a more extensive alumni base out there. And check and see if you can find a list of what CA firms and offices come to each school.

If cost is truly not an issue, (i.e, your rich parents will pay for all of it) then pick whichever you prefer.

Otherwise, I'd decide between UCLA/USC and Duke/NYU based on:

If you want California biglaw > California law > other biglaw, go to UCLA/USC.

If you want California biglaw > any biglaw > California law, go to Duke/NYU.

Lavitz wrote:

Micdiddy wrote:But anyway, if that is truly the case take NYU hands down. The only one who is holding you back is yourself.

I agree that OP's concern is unwarranted but why is it NYU hands-down? It sounds like OP prefers Durham to NYC and would be more comfortable at Duke regardless. So instead of asking whether he'll be more likely to end up below median at NYU than at Duke--and I don't think he will unless he's miserable enough at NYU that it will affect his performance--OP should be asking whether NYU has enough of an edge in CA placement that it would be worth it to move to a completely new environment for three years.

The class of 2012 ABA data shows NYU placed 10.4% of graduates in CA and Duke placed 12%. I know placement doesn't equal placement power, and maybe NYU will have more CA firms come to OCI because of the larger class size. NYU may also have a larger alumni base in CA for the same reason. Also, ending up at below median from NYU might give OP a better shot at NYC biglaw than Duke as a fallback option, if OP is open to that.

So I don't think competitiveness should weigh into OP's decision at all, but I also don't think sticking with Duke is a bad choice if OP is really not comfortable with NYC.

They're both probably equal for Cali (but if we would assume one is better, we should err on the side if NYU). Beyond that, making decisions based on pre-school desires is not always the absolute best way to decide. What if op changes his mind during school? What if he wants to do PI? NYU allows for much more flexibility during school without negatively affecting employment prospects IMO.
Sure, if he will be miserably depressed in NY than that's a problem, I guess I'm assuming he has normal adaptive capabilities.

CA employers will not see a meaningful difference between Duke and NYU. If cost is truly not a factor, go to the school that makes you happiest.

Micdiddy wrote:They're both probably equal for Cali (but if we would assume one is better, we should err on the side if NYU). Beyond that, making decisions based on pre-school desires is not always the absolute best way to decide. What if op changes his mind during school? What if he wants to do PI? NYU allows for much more flexibility during school without negatively affecting employment prospects IMO.

From a purely employment-based outlook, NYU is probably a slightly safer bet for those reasons. I just don't see it as a "hands-down" win for NYU when OP expressed a personal preference for Duke which may or may not outweigh any small advantages NYU offers.

Ran a quick search of CA-based big firms. Should give you a decent idea as to which has the more extensive alumni base and connections in CA-based firms and offices.

Quinn Emanuel (all CA offices): 21 NYU, 3 Duke
Gibson Dunn (all CA offices): 22 NYU, 9 Duke
Paul Hastings (all CA offices): 13 NYU, 3 Duke
Latham (all CA offices): 16 NYU, 13 Duke
O Melvaney (all CA offices): 12 NYU, 5 Duke

So its pretty silly to say that CA would look at both schools the same. The big firms out there are simply more familiar with NYU students than with Duke, and the opportunities for networking will be greater based on the larger network of NYU alums out there.

Lavitz wrote:

Micdiddy wrote:They're both probably equal for Cali (but if we would assume one is better, we should err on the side if NYU). Beyond that, making decisions based on pre-school desires is not always the absolute best way to decide. What if op changes his mind during school? What if he wants to do PI? NYU allows for much more flexibility during school without negatively affecting employment prospects IMO.

From a purely employment-based outlook, NYU is probably a slightly safer bet for those reasons. I just don't see it as a "hands-down" win for NYU when OP expressed a personal preference for Duke which may or may not outweigh any small advantages NYU offers.

Fair enough. I grant "hands-down" was potentially misleading hyperbole, and I didn't mean to lead OP astray but I was probably infusing some of own biases on the matter in my semantics.

Op, you know yourself better than us. If you truly feel your personal performance will be worsened in a non-negligible way by attending NYU, then Perhaps go to Duke, but just know it will have little or nothing to do with the other students, and everything to do with your own performance.

Here are some more stats to add to the above (since I was only looking at LA-based firms before):

MoFo (all CA offices): 16 NYU, 4 Duke
Orrick (all CA offices): 12 NYU, 2 Duke

And of course these are just CA-based firms. I haven't looked into a single non-CA based firm to see just how many more NYU grads are out there compared to Duke. Just in the few firms I've listed, theres a total of 112 NYU grads to 39 Duke.

Just plugged Skadden and Sidley as random examples (again, just CA offices):

Skadden: NYU 14, Duke 0
Sidley: NYU 16, Duke 0

So once again, very silly to think that CA offices or firms will look at NYU and Duke the same. The numbers just don't support that conclusion.

kaiser wrote:Here are some more stats to add to the above (since I was only looking at LA-based firms before):

MoFo (all CA offices): 16 NYU, 4 Duke
Orrick (all CA offices): 12 NYU, 2 Duke

And of course these are just CA-based firms. I haven't looked into a single non-CA based firm to see just how many more NYU grads are out there compared to Duke. Just in the few firms I've listed, theres a total of 112 NYU grads to 39 Duke.

Just plugged Skadden and Sidley as random examples (again, just CA offices):

Skadden: NYU 14, Duke 0
Sidley: NYU 16, Duke 0

FYI NYU has one of the biggest class sizes in the top 14 (400+ students) and Duke has one of the smallest (I believe around 200 students). The info you would really need to determine which of the two is actually better for California is GPA hiring charts. I haven't really seen that kind of info for either school. But from what I've noticed is that grade cutoffs don't differ much between the non HYS top 14 for markets that aren't the home market for the school.

BruceWayne wrote:

kaiser wrote:Here are some more stats to add to the above (since I was only looking at LA-based firms before):

MoFo (all CA offices): 16 NYU, 4 Duke
Orrick (all CA offices): 12 NYU, 2 Duke

And of course these are just CA-based firms. I haven't looked into a single non-CA based firm to see just how many more NYU grads are out there compared to Duke. Just in the few firms I've listed, theres a total of 112 NYU grads to 39 Duke.

Just plugged Skadden and Sidley as random examples (again, just CA offices):

Skadden: NYU 14, Duke 0
Sidley: NYU 16, Duke 0

FYI NYU has one of the biggest class sizes in the top 14 (400+ students) and Duke has one of the smallest (I believe around 200 students). The info you would really need to determine which of the two is actually better for California is GPA hiring charts. I haven't really seen that kind of info for either school. But from what I've noticed is that grade cutoffs don't differ much between the non HYS top 14 for markets that aren't the home market for the school.

Right, NYU has about 450 JD students in a graduating class, whereas Duke has about 215. So that would explain if the hiring rate were a little over 2:1 for NYU. Doesn't explain things like 14:0 at Skadden, 16:0 at Sidley, 16:4 at MoFo, etc. In fact, it looks like only 3 of the 9 firms I listed have stats that are approximately proportional to the class sizes.

kaiser wrote:Right, NYU has about 450 JD students in a graduating class, whereas Duke has about 215. So that would explain if the hiring rate were a little over 2:1 for NYU. Doesn't explain things like 14:0 at Skadden, 16:0 at Sidley, 16:4 at MoFo, etc. In fact, it looks like only 3 of the 9 firms I listed have stats that are approximately proportional to the class sizes.

Ok, NYU outpaces Duke even after accounting for class size. I already admitted that NYU's alumni base would be larger and would probably have more CA firms at OCI. Do you think this also means that CA firms are generally willing to dig deeper into NYU's class gpa-wise than Duke's?

Also, 0L question: how do you do these searches?

Lavitz wrote:

kaiser wrote:Right, NYU has about 450 JD students in a graduating class, whereas Duke has about 215. So that would explain if the hiring rate were a little over 2:1 for NYU. Doesn't explain things like 14:0 at Skadden, 16:0 at Sidley, 16:4 at MoFo, etc. In fact, it looks like only 3 of the 9 firms I listed have stats that are approximately proportional to the class sizes.

Ok, NYU outpaces Duke even after accounting for class size. I already admitted that NYU's alumni base would be larger and would probably have more CA firms at OCI. Do you think this also means that CA firms are generally willing to dig deeper into NYU's class gpa-wise than Duke's?

Also, 0L question: how do you do these searches?

As for whether it means they dig deeper into the class, that is hard to say. It could be a combination of things (more familiarity with the school, more CA firms/offices attending OCI, willingness to dig a bit deeper into the class GPA-wise, etc.).

As for how I get these numbers, I just go to firm sites, and filter based on school and office. If you filter by school, you typically just get a list of all lawyers from that school, and you can just clearly count how many are in CA.

kaiser wrote:

BruceWayne wrote:

kaiser wrote:Here are some more stats to add to the above (since I was only looking at LA-based firms before):

MoFo (all CA offices): 16 NYU, 4 Duke
Orrick (all CA offices): 12 NYU, 2 Duke

And of course these are just CA-based firms. I haven't looked into a single non-CA based firm to see just how many more NYU grads are out there compared to Duke. Just in the few firms I've listed, theres a total of 112 NYU grads to 39 Duke.

Just plugged Skadden and Sidley as random examples (again, just CA offices):

Skadden: NYU 14, Duke 0
Sidley: NYU 16, Duke 0

FYI NYU has one of the biggest class sizes in the top 14 (400+ students) and Duke has one of the smallest (I believe around 200 students). The info you would really need to determine which of the two is actually better for California is GPA hiring charts. I haven't really seen that kind of info for either school. But from what I've noticed is that grade cutoffs don't differ much between the non HYS top 14 for markets that aren't the home market for the school.

Right, NYU has about 450 JD students in a graduating class, whereas Duke has about 215. So that would explain if the hiring rate were a little over 2:1 for NYU. Doesn't explain things like 14:0 at Skadden, 16:0 at Sidley, 16:4 at MoFo, etc. In fact, it looks like only 3 of the 9 firms I listed have stats that are approximately proportional to the class sizes.

Well this is just from personal experience/common sense. But I'd be willing to bet that you're going to have a lot more students at NYU interested in Cali than one's at Duke. But the circular issue with that is that also leads to Cali firms being more accustomed to hiring/interviewing at NYU than Duke. Which is a big deal for someone targeting Cali. It would probably be a safer bet to go to NYU for Cali than Duke--but I wouldn't expect much either way.

kaiser wrote:As for whether it means they dig deeper into the class, that is hard to say. It could be a combination of things (more familiarity with the school, more CA firms/offices attending OCI, willingness to dig a bit deeper into the class GPA-wise, etc.).

As for how I get these numbers, I just go to firm sites, and filter based on school and office. If you filter by school, you typically just get a list of all lawyers from that school, and you can just clearly count how many are in CA.

Ok, thank you.

BruceWayne wrote:

kaiser wrote:

BruceWayne wrote:

kaiser wrote:Here are some more stats to add to the above (since I was only looking at LA-based firms before):

MoFo (all CA offices): 16 NYU, 4 Duke
Orrick (all CA offices): 12 NYU, 2 Duke

And of course these are just CA-based firms. I haven't looked into a single non-CA based firm to see just how many more NYU grads are out there compared to Duke. Just in the few firms I've listed, theres a total of 112 NYU grads to 39 Duke.

Just plugged Skadden and Sidley as random examples (again, just CA offices):

Skadden: NYU 14, Duke 0
Sidley: NYU 16, Duke 0

FYI NYU has one of the biggest class sizes in the top 14 (400+ students) and Duke has one of the smallest (I believe around 200 students). The info you would really need to determine which of the two is actually better for California is GPA hiring charts. I haven't really seen that kind of info for either school. But from what I've noticed is that grade cutoffs don't differ much between the non HYS top 14 for markets that aren't the home market for the school.

Right, NYU has about 450 JD students in a graduating class, whereas Duke has about 215. So that would explain if the hiring rate were a little over 2:1 for NYU. Doesn't explain things like 14:0 at Skadden, 16:0 at Sidley, 16:4 at MoFo, etc. In fact, it looks like only 3 of the 9 firms I listed have stats that are approximately proportional to the class sizes.

Well this is just from personal experience/common sense. But I'd be willing to bet that you're going to have a lot more students at NYU interested in Cali than one's at Duke. But the circular issue with that is that also leads to Cali firms being more accustomed to hiring/interviewing at NYU than Duke. Which is a big deal for someone targeting Cali. It would probably be a safer bet to go to NYU for Cali than Duke--but I wouldn't expect much either way.

I mean, I wouldn't count on it 100%, but keep in mind what kind of self-selection you have at NYU. Most kids come here because they want to work in NY and stay in NY. But if a student has strong connections to CA, expresses interest in returning there, takes the time to network with what is clearly a pretty solid alumni base out there, etc. its not too farfetched to think he will get a shot out there with halfway decent grades (and this is even more true if he/she also has some solid work experience).

percentages are about the same,

Go for personal preference

kaiser wrote:No reason to assume you will be any lower class rank at NYU than you will at Duke. Both have very sharp and intelligent student bodies, and in no way are NYU students smarter or more competitive than Duke students. Not sure why a 2 point difference in LSAT medians would somehow translate to an assumption that you will do better in classes at Duke. That assumption wouldn't be justified even if you compared Duke to a T30, let alone comparing Duke to NYU. And on that basis alone (i.e. all things being equal), def NYU if your main consideration is maximizing your employment outcomes. I know quite a few folks who did their 2L summer positions in CA, since the school is trying hard to build up the alumni base out there. Can't say its super common, but both names travel far, and employers know that both are top schools, regardless of where you search for a job.

If you don't like the city, thats a separate issue. I would go and visit NYU and see how you like the area.

Lol agreed. Looking at rankings, making assumptions about the relative intelligence about the student body of two schools, and then choosing a school based on that assumption is ludicrous. This may be one of the dumbest ideas i've heard on TLS is a while.

Pick the school that is most in line with your interests at the best cost. Done.

Wow, thank you all so much for this information. The firm stats are especially eye-opening. I'm going to take the next week to really think about this - it's clear to me that I would have more employment opportunities at NYU and I don't want to throw that away just because I'm afraid I won't adapt to change.

Go run the firm searches for associates who graduated since 2011 and it will be more useful

sketchmarathon wrote:I Basically, I am TERRIFIED that I'm not going to be up to par at NYU like I will be at Duke, and that I'll fall below median and be screwed.

Erase that fear. Below median at NYU is fine... just don't plunge all the way down the rabbit hole.