Top Law Schools

Hey guys,

With only a few days left to pull the trigger, I'm trying to decide between UVA law at sticker price and University of Michigan with $18,000/year grant. I know they're almost identical schools rankings-wise, so the obvious choice would be U of M, but I really like Virginia for a number of reasons (closer to home, love Charlottesville, I've heard great things about the standard of living/experience, would probably want to work in DC or NYC after graduation). Would I be crazy to choose UVA over Michigan and take on all that extra debt? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

doctor_dale wrote:Hey guys,

With only a few days left to pull the trigger, I'm trying to decide between UVA law at sticker price and University of Michigan with $18,000/year grant. I know they're almost identical schools rankings-wise, so the obvious choice would be U of M, but I really like Virginia for a number of reasons (closer to home, love Charlottesville, I've heard great things about the standard of living/experience, would probably want to work in DC or NYC after graduation). Would I be crazy to choose UVA over Michigan and take on all that extra debt? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Yes

Cobretti wrote:

doctor_dale wrote:Hey guys,

With only a few days left to pull the trigger, I'm trying to decide between UVA law at sticker price and University of Michigan with $18,000/year grant. I know they're almost identical schools rankings-wise, so the obvious choice would be U of M, but I really like Virginia for a number of reasons (closer to home, love Charlottesville, I've heard great things about the standard of living/experience, would probably want to work in DC or NYC after graduation). Would I be crazy to choose UVA over Michigan and take on all that extra debt? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Yes

+1

Michigan for sure. Negotiation wasn't successful?

Did you try to get more money out of UVA with you Michigan offer? If this is where everything stands after negotiations, then I agree with everyone else that choosing UVA would be fairly crazy.

I'd choose Michigan here, but moreover, $18K/year still leaves you with quite a bit of debt assuming you don't have private alternative funding.

If there was like a Cornell, NU or Duke with $25K+ I'd probably take that.

I'm in a similar situation. Any thoughts on how close to median one can be for biglaw prospects in DC coming from Michigan v. coming from UVA?

I'm going to say UVA for the things you mentioned. You're going to be in debt one way or another. Why not take on a little extra to be given a little better chance at job security?

Between these two, I choose Duke w/ 75K

californiabeauar wrote:I'm going to say UVA for the things you mentioned. You're going to be in debt one way or another. Why not take on a little extra to be given a little better chance at job security?

You think UVA is worth spending 65k extra (didn't do the exact math)?

I'm going with Michigan. It can get you to NYC at least and the discount is nothing to sniff at.

californiabeauar wrote:I'm going to say UVA for the things you mentioned. You're going to be in debt one way or another. Why not take on a little extra to be given a little better chance at job security?

+1. Given what you want and given the fact that UVA is a much safer bet for employment (short term and long term) i'd say its worth it. In 20 years the Virginia name will be much stronger than Michigan's.

gnuwheels wrote:

californiabeauar wrote:I'm going to say UVA for the things you mentioned. You're going to be in debt one way or another. Why not take on a little extra to be given a little better chance at job security?

+1. Given what you want and given the fact that UVA is a much safer bet for employment (short term and long term) i'd say its worth it. In 20 years the Virginia name will be much stronger than Michigan's.

UVA is not a much safer bet for employment short-term and long-term.

Also, please provide some evidence as to the assertion in your last sentence. Or just continue looking like an idiot.

gnuwheels wrote:

californiabeauar wrote:I'm going to say UVA for the things you mentioned. You're going to be in debt one way or another. Why not take on a little extra to be given a little better chance at job security?

+1. Given what you want and given the fact that UVA is a much safer bet for employment (short term and long term) i'd say its worth it. In 20 years the Virginia name will be much stronger than Michigan's.

I love UVA, and I think it's a great school and gets an unfair rap around here at times.

BUT

Your post is false.

I'm guessing his argument is that Michigan is a TTT in decline ala Georgetown while UVA is holding strong with its peers BN(U)DC. Job placement and whatnot.

BigZuck wrote:I'm guessing his argument is that Michigan is a TTT in decline ala Georgetown while UVA is holding strong with its peers BN(U)DC. Job placement and whatnot.

NoodleyOne wrote: Your post is false.

Given that the former poster literally never has any what s/he's talking about, I'll just confirm Noodley and mention that neither UVA nor Michigan have ever been ranked outside the top ten, and that the admissions departments at each would commit seppuku before they allowed such a drop to happen. Michigan had a couple rough years in terms of employment stats and happened to be tremendously transparent about it, whereas UVA leads the nation in employing their own grads to manipulate their numbers, but both schools will ride it out as they always have. In answer to OP, giving up approx. 60k cause you like Charlottsville is insane, but if you're DC or bust, I suppose you could make the argument for UVA.

dude seriously, you are already swamped with debt, go to the place that makes you happy- you will do better there

bruinfan10 wrote:

BigZuck wrote:I'm guessing his argument is that Michigan is a TTT in decline ala Georgetown while UVA is holding strong with its peers BN(U)DC. Job placement and whatnot.

NoodleyOne wrote: Your post is false.

Given that the former poster literally never has any what s/he's talking about, I'll just confirm Noodley and mention that neither UVA nor Michigan have ever been ranked outside the top ten, and that the admissions departments at each would commit seppuku before they allowed such a drop to happen. Michigan had a couple rough years in terms of employment stats and happened to be tremendously transparent about it, whereas UVA leads the nation in employing their own grads to manipulate their numbers, but both schools will ride it out as they always have. In answer to OP, giving up approx. 60k cause you like Charlottsville is insane, but if you're DC or bust, I suppose you could make the argument for UVA.

What did they do that was transparent? Admit to saying "bid Chicago" or something else? Because if it was the former, then what happened to the most recent grads?

Just curious, did you go to Michigan? Just wondering why its employment stats are so much worse than their peers and if you might have some insight into that.

Data on UVA's "self-employment" game.
Report on Michigan's comparatively outstanding employment transparency (i.e. they don't juke their stats).

This is all really old news - at least to the extent we've been debating whether UVA is shady as shit versus whether their program leads to full time employment since before my cycle - I'm just saying it'd be nice if you actually had some appreciable level of substantive knowledge before you jumped on the "UM is the new GULC" bandwagon.

bruinfan10 wrote:Data on UVA's "self-employment" game.
Report on Michigan's comparatively outstanding employment transparency (i.e. they don't juke their stats).

This is all really old news - at least to the extent we've been debating whether UVA is shady as shit versus whether their program leads to full time employment since before my cycle - I'm just saying it'd be nice if you actually had some appreciable level of substantive knowledge before you jumped on the "UM is the new GULC" bandwagon.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... wships.htm

Some info on UVA's fellowships.

A recent follow-up study of the Class of 2010 found post-fellowship employment information for 35 of the 40 fellows. All 35 are now employed in permanent, full-time positions — 32 as lawyers, two in jobs for which a J.D. was an advantage, and one in a position that did not require a law degree.

Just saying, UVA's school-funded positions, while maybe not a preferred outcome, does seem to lead to full-time, jd required positions. I'll say this though... Michigan's drop in employment is troubling. There may be some self-selection going on, but TLS is a very conservative crowd with employment numbers (and rightfully so ITE), so their low placement in clerkships/biglaw is something to be concerned about. How much money that concern is worth to you is a different question.

bruinfan10 wrote:Data on UVA's "self-employment" game.
Report on Michigan's comparatively outstanding employment transparency (i.e. they don't juke their stats).

This is all really old news - at least to the extent we've been debating whether UVA is shady as shit versus whether their program leads to full time employment since before my cycle - I'm just saying it'd be nice if you actually had some appreciable level of substantive knowledge before you jumped on the "UM is the new GULC" bandwagon.

And I'm just saying that HIS argument seems to be that Michigan is the new Georgetown (which was hyperbole and me putting words into his mouth). I personally did not say that in this thread. This is the second time I have conversed with you on TLS and this is the second time your reading comprehension has failed you. It would be nice if you read carefully before you respond to something someone else has written

So you did not go to Michigan and you don't have any personal insight into what might be happening? Also even if UVA is gaming they are substantially out placing Michigan into big law/clerkships just like almost all of the rest of the lower t14.

Totally depends on how much money matters to you. YOLOOOOOOO

BigZuck wrote:Also even if UVA is gaming they are substantially out placing Michigan into big law/clerkships just like almost all of the rest of the lower t14.

I'm just asking that you run some actual numbers once in a while. Michigan outplaced UVA and all but five other schools in AIII clerkships last year (source). And the inference you might be expected to draw from the fact that UVA self-employs 15+% of its graduating class is that it likely would not be outplacing many T14 schools in general employment if it didn't game the system.

bruinfan10 wrote:

BigZuck wrote:Also even if UVA is gaming they are substantially out placing Michigan into big law/clerkships just like almost all of the rest of the lower t14.

You're like the TLS version of Michele Bachmann in terms of fact checking; all I'm asking is that you run some actual numbers once in a while. Michigan outplaced UVA and all but five other schools in AIII clerkships last year (source). And the inference you might be expected to draw from the fact that UVA self-employs 15+% of its graduating class is that it likely would not be outplacing many T14 schools in general employment if it didn't game the system.

I was talking about so-called "prestigious" employment which is big law and clerkships. UVA way outplaced Michigan, as did almost all of the rest of the lower T14. Guess I should have written "big law+clerkships" instead of "biglaw/clerkships." Also .3% isn't much of an out placing to me.

So you did go to Michigan?

I no big fan of UVA mainly because of their sky high school funded stat, but on the other hand there is no longer a MVP (the M is gone) and then there's this... perhaps a sign of the future direction of Mich. Just sayin'...

http://abovethelaw.com/careers/law-school-rankings/