Need to Pick Today Forum

[WisemanAEKDB]

So, I've officially decided I'm 100% attending law school next year. I'm waitlisted at University of Washington, and USC and plan on waiting those out to see. However, I need to sign a binding deposit by 5 pm today to choose between the accepted schools I've been offered. Goals include keeping an open mind throughout law school to have as many options as possible. I would like to do corporate ligation, and I would definitely not turn down a clerkship (though I know how hard these are to obtain). The choices...

UC Davis. $70k/aid/3yrs. OOS. Total COA is approximately $110k-$125k
Employment Stats

Utah. $45k/aid/3yrs. In-State. Total COA is approximately $50k
Employment Stats

I attended Utah for undergrad, and I thought the school was decent. I don't like Utah, as I'm not religious or conservative and it is quite tough to get along here with some of the people. I wouldn't jump off a bridge if I lived here for longer, but it's not my first choice. My goal is to end up in Seattle, Bay Area, or wherever I am happy. I have ties to the Philadelphia region and Salt Lake City.

I toured both schools, absolutely loved the Davis ASW and I met some really good people who would be attending next year. Their career services was REALLY impressive and they hired a new guy to head the program. He seems really on top of it. Utah is constructing a new law school to replace the really crappy current one. It will be ready by my 3L, but I am very worried about construction noise/ lack of study space.

I know conventional TLS wisdom is to RETAKE, but I've decided not to retake. My personal best option is to get into school and go for this. I've taken twice and improved ~10 points after 8 months of HARDCORE studying. I never broke a 166 on a PT. I'm more than willing to give more info to help if you ask. Thank you!

[20141023]

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[TheZoid]

Seems like neither is really a great option, so I'd go with the cheaper option which is Utah.

[DoveBodyWash]

Davis.

[WisemanAEKDB]

If you’re set on going, I think this is a no-brainer. Go with Davis.

Why do you say a no-brainer? Just curious, as I'm struggling pretty hard to make a choice.

[rad lulz]

I think it's a no brainer for Utah. No way I'd pay that much for Davis.

[DoveBodyWash]

I think it's a no brainer for Utah. No way I'd pay that much for Davis.

OP already has ties to Salt Lake City/Utah, so Davis could potentially open up more markets since OP already has a legitimate (but certainly not secure) claim to the Utah market. Is it worth paying that much more for a chance at the norcal/Sacramento market? Probably depends completely on OP's performance, which no one can confidently predict. But it looks like OP wants as many options as possible, i think it's worth the money. If he/she goes to Utah, it's very likely that they'll end up staying there. OP didn't seem particularly enthused about staying in Utah.

[romothesavior]

Are you guys serious? You think it's a slam dunk to spend an extra 75-100k for a Davis degree over the local flagship state school with similar job statistics where he's got strong ties? This one is easily Utah or don't go, it's not even close.

[empyreanrrv]

Seems like neither is really a great option, so I'd go with the cheaper option which is Utah.

+1. Davis is too much debt.

[WisemanAEKDB]

OP already has ties to Salt Lake City/Utah, so Davis could potentially open up more markets since OP already has a legitimate (but certainly not secure) claim to the Utah market. Is it worth paying that much more for a chance at the norcal/Sacramento market? Probably depends completely on OP's performance, which no one can confidently predict. But it looks like OP wants as many options as possible, i think it's worth the money. If he/she goes to Utah, it's very likely that they'll end up staying there. OP didn't seem particularly enthused about staying in Utah.

You're right about many things. I am extremely scared of staying in Utah and developing a family here. For those of you who have never been here, it's very oppressive. I would consider myself to be a diverse person who loves experiencing the world, but there are people I've met here who literally have never left the state of Utah in 25 years of being here. It's downright frightening. If I wanted to stay in Utah, this is a no-brainer to stay in Utah. However I want to break into a new market and I'm scared that if I stay here through law school, a new market is ridiculous to attempt to tap into. I figure "if I ever want to move, this is the time to move..." And I do, but I don't know if I want to risk $100k on doing it.

[timbs4339]

Utah.

For your goals it's a crapshoot at either of the school. You're likely not getting "corporate litigation" and an AIII clerkship is an even worse bet. Best to get out of it with as little debt as possible for salaries that are probably going to be in the 40-60K range.

[WhiskeynCoke]

OP, even though you've studied for 8 months and
Already improved 10 points, a retake is still the credited response, given your goals and current options. Corporate litigation will be VERY hard to land coming from Davis and given your general disdain for Utah and its "people"(see: fanatical religious zealots) I think it's off the table unless you'd like to be completely miserable for not only the next 3 years, but also for your entire legal career. Only go to Utah if you're ok with practicing in Utah.

Davis is the lesser of two evils here. Just be aware that you'll need top 10% to have a fair chance at landing a corporate litigation gig. Theres a 90% chance you wont accomplish this. You better Network your ass off.

[rad lulz]

OP already has ties to Salt Lake City/Utah, so Davis could potentially open up more markets since OP already has a legitimate (but certainly not secure) claim to the Utah market. Is it worth paying that much more for a chance at the norcal/Sacramento market? Probably depends completely on OP's performance, which no one can confidently predict. But it looks like OP wants as many options as possible, i think it's worth the money. If he/she goes to Utah, it's very likely that they'll end up staying there. OP didn't seem particularly enthused about staying in Utah.

You're right about many things. I am extremely scared of staying in Utah and developing a family here. For those of you who have never been here, it's very oppressive. I would consider myself to be a diverse person who loves experiencing the world, but there are people I've met here who literally have never left the state of Utah in 25 years of being here. It's downright frightening. If I wanted to stay in Utah, this is a no-brainer to stay in Utah. However I want to break into a new market and I'm scared that if I stay here through law school, a new market is ridiculous to attempt to tap into. I figure "if I ever want to move, this is the time to move..." And I do, but I don't know if I want to risk $100k on doing it.

You could just not go to law school and get a job somewhere else

[rad lulz]

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[untar614]

You could just not go to law school and get a job somewhere else

Indeed, if it were me, I wouldn't go, so it's hard for me to say one option is better, as I think neither is better than not going. I do find it interesting that people feel strongly one way or the other, though.

[WisemanAEKDB]

For those of you choosing Utah, how much would you realistically pay for Davis? I was chatting with the dean regarding the situation and essentially pleading for more aid. Not sure that's going to get me anywhere, but if they upped me another $10k/yr, would it change any of your minds? It would probably sway me.

[rad lulz]

For those of you choosing Utah, how much would you realistically pay for Davis? I was chatting with the dean regarding the situation and essentially pleading for more aid. Not sure that's going to get me anywhere, but if they upped me another $10k/yr, would it change any of your minds? It would probably sway me.

Probably like $75k debt considering that IF you get a FT/LT/BPR job (and there is a VERY real probability you may not) it'll probably pay like $50k.

[Crowing]

The problem OP is that Utah is the only one of the two that makes any sense based on COA and stats except you don't want to stay in Utah so then neither of your options are sensible.

[20141023]

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[timbs4339]

For those of you choosing Utah, how much would you realistically pay for Davis? I was chatting with the dean regarding the situation and essentially pleading for more aid. Not sure that's going to get me anywhere, but if they upped me another $10k/yr, would it change any of your minds? It would probably sway me.

Probably like $75k debt considering that IF you get a FT/LT/BPR job (and there is a VERY real probability you may not) it'll probably pay like $50k.

This.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Man, I don't know. If you don't want to be in Utah, don't go to Utah. I probably wouldn't go to Davis for that much money, either, but if you insist on making these your two choices and you don't want to live in Utah, then, Davis I guess.

[pinkcamellia]

OP already has ties to Salt Lake City/Utah, so Davis could potentially open up more markets since OP already has a legitimate (but certainly not secure) claim to the Utah market. Is it worth paying that much more for a chance at the norcal/Sacramento market? Probably depends completely on OP's performance, which no one can confidently predict. But it looks like OP wants as many options as possible, i think it's worth the money. If he/she goes to Utah, it's very likely that they'll end up staying there. OP didn't seem particularly enthused about staying in Utah.

You're right about many things. I am extremely scared of staying in Utah and developing a family here. For those of you who have never been here, it's very oppressive. I would consider myself to be a diverse person who loves experiencing the world, but there are people I've met here who literally have never left the state of Utah in 25 years of being here. It's downright frightening. If I wanted to stay in Utah, this is a no-brainer to stay in Utah. However I want to break into a new market and I'm scared that if I stay here through law school, a new market is ridiculous to attempt to tap into. I figure "if I ever want to move, this is the time to move..." And I do, but I don't know if I want to risk $100k on doing it.

You could just not go to law school and get a job somewhere else

Rad is right. I know it's not fun to hear, but your choices are A) a ton of debt that will VERY LIKELY not be serviceable in a market where you have no ties or B) most likely manageable debt but probably not achieving your career goals and suffocating in a state and environment you dislike.

What is so wrong about retaking or reapplying? Neither of these choices will make you happy in the long run. I know you're thinking about how good it will feel to be somewhere like California, have money taken care of due to loans, and trying to follow your dream. But why won't you give your dream the best possible environment to come true? You know inside that you have such a small shot at both of these schools. If you study and retake, you could get great money at a school in an area you could see yourself practicing in that places a lot of students into your desired position.

We're not trying to shit on your dream here. We're trying to save it.

[DoveBodyWash]

I am extremely scared of staying in Utah and developing a family here.

It's downright frightening. If I wanted to stay in Utah, this is a no-brainer to stay in Utah. However I want to break into a new market...

I figure "if I ever want to move, this is the time to move..." And I do, but I don't know if I want to risk $100k on doing it.

Debt sucks. But if debt took precedence over everything for OP then he/she probably wouldn't have dismissed retaking/re-applying. But they did. To me this indicates that OP doesn't prioritize debt above everything else. Assuming that (not necessarily saying it's a wise decision) it seems Davis is the clear choice to me.

OP doesn't want to stay in Utah. Going to Utah only makes more sense if minimizing debt is the only consideration. But there are clearly other things in play here. The argument for Utah is based completely on 1. lower debt and 2. Likelihood of a job in Utah (because it's the flagship state school). I say again, OP does NOT want to stay in Utah and wants to at least have a chance at other markets.

Neither school offers a great deal of certainty, but Davis offers what OP wants, which is a chance to break into other markets. Why take out any debt at ALL, whether it's 50k or 5k, for a school that only offers you a prize that you don't want to begin with?

If a chance to get out of Utah takes precedence to debt, then Davis
If minimizing debt and having a job, even if it's in Utah, takes precedence, then Utah
If you can summon the perseverance to try again, then re-take and re-apply.

[WisemanAEKDB]

I'm also UW or bust via waitlist. Chances of getting off of that WL are reasonable, which was what I was told when I met with them in Seattle last week. Problem there is that COA will definitely be sticker. I'd love to go to UW over these two choices. Thoughts on that?

[rad lulz]

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