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Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:34 pm
by Yossarian79
Hi TLSers,
I'm faced with a choice that I'm turning around in my brain -- Michigan at sticker, or UCLA with a $120,000 scholarship? A few things about me: I'm an older, "non-traditional" student, have no particular ties to either place, and am 100 percent PI-focused (obviously, things could change on that front, but let's assume for this discussion that I stick with PI). Both schools have great LRAPs, so that evens out, although I feel like my chance of getting an LRAP-qualifying job in the first place is probably higher at Michigan. I should also add that I got accepted into UCLA's Epstein Program, which is their public interest-focused cohort. That may help make up for the fact that Michigan probably has a better PI support structure and "culture."
Anyway, these are both great choices, but they both carry considerable risk, obviously. Any thoughts?
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:48 pm
by 06102016
..
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:22 pm
by nebula666
UCLA by a mile and don't look back
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:27 pm
by TripTrip
This might be more of a debate if the COA difference were more like $50k instead of $120k.
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:28 pm
by 06102016
..
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:34 pm
by BigZuck
UCLA has a great LRAP? Can you explain what makes it great?
I vote UCLA btw
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:38 pm
by TripTrip
slack_academic wrote:TripTrip wrote:This might be more of a debate if the COA difference were more like $50k instead of $120k.
Would it, though?
Yeah, I think so. If UCLA were offering less than $50k I'd start looking toward Mich. Sticker is expensive, but the relative price difference at that point would push me toward Mich.
I also looked at this from another scenario: If I had a full tuition scholarship from Mich and a full tuition scholarship with a $50k total COL stipend from UCLA, I think I would still go Mich. Even though sticker sucks, you have to look at it from opportunity cost and not purely from an absolute cost perspective. (FTR I had to make a decision very similar to this, except it was V not M and UCLA was 30 not 50, but the choice was
absolutely clear.)
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:50 pm
by Yossarian79
BigZuck wrote:UCLA has a great LRAP? Can you explain what makes it great?
I vote UCLA btw
Like Michigan, it's tied to the federal IBR program. If you get a qualifying job making up to 60K per year, the school will make the entirety of your IBR payments. They'll pay 35 percent of anything you owe above the 60K amount, until you hit 80K, which is where the cap is (Michigan's cap is somewhat similar, and they do sliding scale payments as your income goes up).
http://www.law.ucla.edu/current-student ... eyond.aspx
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:51 pm
by Yossarian79
TripTrip wrote:slack_academic wrote:TripTrip wrote:This might be more of a debate if the COA difference were more like $50k instead of $120k.
Would it, though?
Yeah, I think so. If UCLA were offering less than $50k I'd start looking toward Mich. Sticker is expensive, but the relative price difference at that point would push me toward Mich.
I also looked at this from another scenario: If I had a full tuition scholarship from Mich and a full tuition scholarship with a $50k total COL stipend from UCLA, I think I would still go Mich. Even though sticker sucks, you have to look at it from opportunity cost and not purely from an absolute cost perspective. (FTR I had to make a decision very similar to this, except it was V not M and UCLA was 30 not 50, but the choice was
absolutely clear.)
Would you mind elaborating on this? I'd love to hear what your thought process was.
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:00 pm
by TripTrip
Yossarian79 wrote:TripTrip wrote:slack_academic wrote:TripTrip wrote:This might be more of a debate if the COA difference were more like $50k instead of $120k.
Would it, though?
Yeah, I think so. If UCLA were offering less than $50k I'd start looking toward Mich. Sticker is expensive, but the relative price difference at that point would push me toward Mich.
I also looked at this from another scenario: If I had a full tuition scholarship from Mich and a full tuition scholarship with a $50k total COL stipend from UCLA, I think I would still go Mich. Even though sticker sucks, you have to look at it from opportunity cost and not purely from an absolute cost perspective. (FTR I had to make a decision very similar to this, except it was V not M and UCLA was 30 not 50, but the choice was
absolutely clear.)
Would you mind elaborating on this? I'd love to hear what your thought process was.
To be clear, my situation is substantially different than yours; it was just a hypothetical I using to compare relative costs. I was fortunate enough to be offered a full tuition scholarship at UVA and a full tuition scholarship with a $10k yearly grant at UCLA. The difference in COA, then, would be around $30k. (In reality the difference is about half of this because COL in LA is significantly worse than C'ville, but that's neither here nor there.) Long term, UVA is definitely worth $30k more to me than UCLA just in terms of pure employment prospects.
However, I would not say UVA (or Mich) is worth $120k more than UCLA. That's a huge difference. Think $1,000/month over fifteen years in debt service.
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:04 pm
by BigZuck
Just realized the OP is not from CA. I'm not super optimistic now that he/she will be able to pay down 100K of UCLA debt.
There are no middle ground options? No Duke/Cornell type school with money?
Where are your ties and where do you want to end up? And what are your numbers?
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:05 pm
by PRgradBYU
BigZuck wrote:Where are your ties and where do you want to end up? And what are your numbers?
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:07 pm
by TripTrip
BigZuck wrote:Just realized the OP is not from CA. I'm not super optimistic now that he/she will be able to pay down 100K of UCLA debt.
There are no middle ground options? No Duke/Cornell type school with money?
Where are your ties and where do you want to end up? And what are your numbers?
I'd +1 all that.
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:09 pm
by Yossarian79
BigZuck wrote:Just realized the OP is not from CA. I'm not super optimistic now that he/she will be able to pay down 100K of UCLA debt.
There are no middle ground options? No Duke/Cornell type school with money?
Where are your ties and where do you want to end up? And what are your numbers?
I'm a bit of a splitter, so money from the lower T14's was never really in the cards. 3.4 GPA with a 169 LSAT -- I think what got me into a school like Michigan in the first place, besides the relatively strong LSAT, were some really strong softs. Most of the other T14's either rejected me or waitlisted me (e.g. Duke and UVA). I'm pretty confident at this point that if I'm going to go to a T14, it will have to be at sticker.
As for ties and where I want to end up, I live in DC but have no desire to come back here. I'd like to end up in NYC or Chicago, ideally, and have some ties to both. But I'm not wedded to any one area in particular.
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:12 pm
by TripTrip
Yossarian79 wrote: I'd like to end up in NYC or Chicago, ideally, and have some ties to both. But I'm not wedded to any one area in particular.
If that's the case, UCLA will not help you get there.
Take two years off to gain WE, retake the LSAT and score 171, and ED NU in 2014. All problems solved.
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:17 pm
by Yossarian79
TripTrip wrote:Yossarian79 wrote: I'd like to end up in NYC or Chicago, ideally, and have some ties to both. But I'm not wedded to any one area in particular.
If that's the case, UCLA will not help you get there.
Take two years off to gain WE, retake the LSAT and score 171, and ED NU in 2014. All problems solved.
I graduated college in 2001. I have all the WE in the world, and at a very high level. And the 169 is already a retake.
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:18 pm
by BigZuck
Yossarian79 wrote:BigZuck wrote:Just realized the OP is not from CA. I'm not super optimistic now that he/she will be able to pay down 100K of UCLA debt.
There are no middle ground options? No Duke/Cornell type school with money?
Where are your ties and where do you want to end up? And what are your numbers?
I'm a bit of a splitter, so money from the lower T14's was never really in the cards. 3.4 GPA with a 169 LSAT -- I think what got me into a school like Michigan in the first place, besides the relatively strong LSAT, were some really strong softs. Most of the other T14's either rejected me or waitlisted me (e.g. Duke and UVA). I'm pretty confident at this point that if I'm going to go to a T14, it will have to be at sticker.
As for ties and where I want to end up, I live in DC but have no desire to come back here. I'd like to end up in NYC or Chicago, ideally, and have some ties to both. But I'm not wedded to any one area in particular.
UCLA is out I'm afraid. I wouldn't go there without CA ties AND a strong desire to work in Southern CA.
I think you best bet might be to Noodley that LSAT and try to get some big money from a UVA or NU type school.
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:19 pm
by TripTrip
Yossarian79 wrote:TripTrip wrote:Yossarian79 wrote: I'd like to end up in NYC or Chicago, ideally, and have some ties to both. But I'm not wedded to any one area in particular.
If that's the case, UCLA will not help you get there.
Take two years off to gain WE, retake the LSAT and score 171, and ED NU in 2014. All problems solved.
I graduated college in 2001. I have all the WE in the world, and at a very high level. And the 169 is already a retake.
Then retake in June or October and ED NU next cycle! Too easy.
Take a course like TestMasters or go here:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 6&t=200917
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:32 pm
by FlowBro
TripTrip wrote:Yossarian79 wrote:TripTrip wrote:Yossarian79 wrote: I'd like to end up in NYC or Chicago, ideally, and have some ties to both. But I'm not wedded to any one area in particular.
If that's the case, UCLA will not help you get there.
Take two years off to gain WE, retake the LSAT and score 171, and ED NU in 2014. All problems solved.
I graduated college in 2001. I have all the WE in the world, and at a very high level. And the 169 is already a retake.
Then retake in June or October and ED NU next cycle! Too easy.
Take a course like TestMasters or go here:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 6&t=200917
Although I am a proponent of retaking (I myself retook twice) I do not think it is necessarily the best move here. Although OP wants cities that may be more difficult to attain from UCLA, it is not a terrible option. Epstein program does well with PI placement generally speaking.
Also, OP said that the 169 was a retake, so we cannot be sure that there would be a sizable increase on a retake. Add that to the fact that OP has WE, it isn't nearly as clear cut of a decision as K-JD
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:37 pm
by TripTrip
FlowBro wrote:
Although I am a proponent of retaking (I myself retook twice) I do not think it is necessarily the best move here. Although OP wants cities that may be more difficult to attain from UCLA, it is not a terrible option. Epstein program does well with PI placement generally speaking.
Also, OP said that the 169 was a retake, so we cannot be sure that there would be a sizable increase on a retake. Add that to the fact that OP has WE, it isn't nearly as clear cut of a decision as K-JD
OP only needs one or two points on the LSAT to be competitive at NU ED. That's a $150k scholarhip with fantawesome placement in Chicago and NYC.
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:43 pm
by BigZuck
5% of the class in NY, 1% DC, 7% randomly spread out across the country, the rest in CA or unemployed. I would not go to UCLA thinking you could get a job outside of CA.
Although maybe PI is just that much different than firm hiring.
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:53 pm
by Yossarian79
A few of you have brought up some really great points. This is a tough decision.
On the NU ED thing, believe me, I'd love to see that as a viable option, but even assuming I absolutely nailed a second LSAT retake, my strong impression is that their GPA floor for the $150,000 scholarship is substantially higher than the 3.4 I'm sporting. In other words, even if I hit low to mid-170s with another retake, the ED to Northwestern may be out -- unless I hit something close to a 180, which is not a smart thing to assume or plan for.
As for placement, one of the above posters hit it exactly right -- I'd love to know not just what UCLA's geographical placement is, but where Epstein grads in particular end up. If it looks in general like the overall class, then it's probably not worth the risk without CA ties. But if their fabled "network" really does allow Epstein kids to branch out geographically, then that's a point in UCLA's favor. I'm not sure if I could get access to those numbers, though.
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:58 pm
by WokeUpInACar
OP will not be getting 150k from NU with a 3.4.
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:59 pm
by TripTrip
The scholarship shows as 0 because these applicants didn't bother to enter the money. All but one of the ones I checked got in in late December under ED, which would imply they got the cash.
Re: Michigan at sticker or UCLA with $$$?
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:00 pm
by BigZuck
Yossarian79 wrote:A few of you have brought up some really great points. This is a tough decision.
On the NU ED thing, believe me, I'd love to see that as a viable option, but even assuming I absolutely nailed a second LSAT retake, my strong impression is that their GPA floor for the $150,000 scholarship is substantially higher than the 3.4 I'm sporting. In other words, even if I hit low to mid-170s with another retake, the ED to Northwestern may be out -- unless I hit something close to a 180, which is not a smart thing to assume or plan for.
As for placement, one of the above posters hit it exactly right -- I'd love to know not just what UCLA's geographical placement is, but where Epstein grads in particular end up. If it looks in general like the overall class, then it's probably not worth the risk without CA ties. But if their fabled "network" really does allow Epstein kids to branch out geographically, then that's a point in UCLA's favor. I'm not sure if I could get access to those numbers, though.
You can't just shoot Dean Schwartz an email? If they want that 169 they should accommodate you.