Is Columbia worth sticker? Forum

[NYstate]

This is a cautionary tale in the making.

(1) OP is K/JD

(2) OP has zero WE.

(3) OP's reasons for going to LS sound suspiciously vague (What does OP mean by "public interest?" PD? DA? Legal services? Writing Brandeis briefs for the Environmental Defense Fund?).

(4) OP appears to know nothing about legal practice, as he notes that although he wants PI he's not averse to going to BigLaw for a couple of years to get "experience" Being a junior at a big firm is almost completely useless in terms of getting experience for any PI job. In addition, PI is getting more competitive all the time because of PSLF, and most PI employers have no interest in BigLaw washouts, since they can get top PI-committed people.

(5) There is no reason for a PI-committed person to ever go to CLS at sticker, since what CLS buys you (at $300K in debt) is a good shot at BigLaw.

How much is sticker going to be- somewhere between $280,000 and $300,000?

I want to emphasize number 4 here. I would bet that at least half of the people on this forum have no idea what legal practice entails. Before borrowing this much money to go to law school, you need to understand what practicing law means beyond what you see on television. I'm sure OP fits into this group.

In sum, OP appears to be a starry-eyed 0L who is thrilled by how he's getting into prestigious law schools, even though his reasons for going sound extremely dubious. He would be way better off taking his fancy undergrad degree and getting a job for a couple of years, preferably legally-related, but really any job would be better than K-JDing his way to $300K in debt while having some vague idea that he wants to be a lawyer of some sort. Plus this would give him a chance to bump his LSAT three points, which would be the equivalent of paying himself $150K.

[rad lulz]

Distribution of scholarships throughout the T14 is more unpredictable than TLS CW. Its not always a sliding scale.

Agree with this. Last year, CLS gave me one of my most generous scholarship awards in the T14. Of course, I think my situation was an aberration, but it's still worth noting.

That being said, as a general matter, I wouldn't pay sticker at CLS.

Almost 290k bro

[Borg]

Totally depends on opportunity cost, but I'd say that as a general matter it is worth it to go there at sticker. I don't remember exactly, but I think it was ranked either first or second on LST for employment outcomes. Law schools in general are far too expensive, but if you're going to pay for it I don't think Columbia is necessarily a bad decision.

[Sheffield]

Where is the data that supports CLS costing astronomically more than other highly ranked schools? As far as I can tell CLS is just slightly more expensive than some private tier 1 and 2 schools — slightly more translates to around $3K a year, if that. Granted, I am using the TLS data from the “law school tab” and most of the school data has not been updated in years.

And yes, there are other T14 schools that will net the median student the same a $160K paycheck for slightly less. The upside of CLS is the prospect of landing that dream job even if you are uncomfortably below median. Not many schools provide that type of a safety net cushion.

[NoodleyOne]

Where is the data that supports CLS costing astronomically more than other highly ranked schools? As far as I can tell CLS is just slightly more expensive than some private tier 1 and 2 schools — slightly more translates to around $3K a year, if that. Granted, I am using the TLS data from the “law school tab” and most of the school data has not been updated in years.

And yes, there are other T14 schools that will net the median student the same a $160K paycheck for slightly less. The upside of CLS is the prospect of landing that dream job even if you are uncomfortably below median. Not many schools provide that type of a safety net cushion.

Cost of Living?

[Sheffield]

10 of the T14 schools are located in high COL places.

[quiver]

I want to address the Professor's post:

This is a cautionary tale in the making.

Maybe, maybe not.

(1) OP is K/JD

(2) OP has zero WE.

Not sure why these two things matter.

(3) OP's reasons for going to LS sound suspiciously vague (What does OP mean by "public interest?" PD? DA? Legal services? Writing Brandeis briefs for the Environmental Defense Fund?).

They're vague, sure. But "suspiciously vague?" I think that might be reading a little too much into it. Another conclusion could be that the OP may have wanted a quick answer to the question without divulging too many details.

(4) OP appears to know nothing about legal practice, as he notes that although he wants PI he's not averse to going to BigLaw for a couple of years to get "experience" Being a junior at a big firm is almost completely useless in terms of getting experience for any PI job. In addition, PI is getting more competitive all the time because of PSLF, and most PI employers have no interest in BigLaw washouts, since they can get top PI-committed people.

This is a very good point.

(5) There is no reason for a PI-committed person to ever go to CLS at sticker, since what CLS buys you (at $300K in debt) is a good shot at BigLaw.

This statement is too broad IMO. CLS can buy you a lot of things, including a very good LRAP. If one is a "PI-committed person" you mentioned in your last point, then being at CLS can open many PI doors by virtue of being a top school. It's obviously not YSH in terms of either placement into PI or LRAP but it's pretty close. To say that "there is no reason for a PI-committed person to ever go to CLS at sticker" seems way too broad.

Tiago, I like this point a lot:

6) OP has a 168 LSAT. There might be some situations where CLS at sticker is justified, but never for anyone who hasn't maxed out their LSAT potential.

[Vincent]

This is a decision I'm going to have to make, so I'm going to lurk here and hope for wisdom. Columbia or Berkeley......

Congrats on your acceptances Vincent! I'm just wondering: are you not considering Chicago at all, with the $45,000 scholly? Have you tried bargaining with NYU or Berkeley (through the matching program).

I really liked my Chicago visit, but it doesn't seem to concentrate as much in the areas of law I would want to go into. I was turned off from NYU by my visit there - some people just *know* they belong at a school when they step on campus, and I just knew I didn't belong at NYU.




With regards to OP's situation: I don't think I have enough information to render an opinion. If OP's choices are Columbia @ sticker vs. no law school, I'd say go for it. If OP had another law school in mind with a strong LRAP program and staff/faculty invested in the IP field (that also happened to provide OP with a nice grant/scholarship), I wouldn't say Columbia would be worth it.

[pastapplicant]

I want to address the Professor's post:

This is a cautionary tale in the making.

Maybe, maybe not.

(1) OP is K/JD

(2) OP has zero WE.

Not sure why these two things matter.

(3) OP's reasons for going to LS sound suspiciously vague (What does OP mean by "public interest?" PD? DA? Legal services? Writing Brandeis briefs for the Environmental Defense Fund?).

They're vague, sure. But "suspiciously vague?" I think that might be reading a little too much into it. Another conclusion could be that the OP may have wanted a quick answer to the question without divulging too many details.

(4) OP appears to know nothing about legal practice, as he notes that although he wants PI he's not averse to going to BigLaw for a couple of years to get "experience" Being a junior at a big firm is almost completely useless in terms of getting experience for any PI job. In addition, PI is getting more competitive all the time because of PSLF, and most PI employers have no interest in BigLaw washouts, since they can get top PI-committed people.

This is a very good point.

(5) There is no reason for a PI-committed person to ever go to CLS at sticker, since what CLS buys you (at $300K in debt) is a good shot at BigLaw.

This statement is too broad IMO. CLS can buy you a lot of things, including a very good LRAP. If one is a "PI-committed person" you mentioned in your last point, then being at CLS can open many PI doors by virtue of being a top school. It's obviously not YSH in terms of either placement into PI or LRAP but it's pretty close. To say that "there is no reason for a PI-committed person to ever go to CLS at sticker" seems way too broad.

Tiago, I like this point a lot:

6) OP has a 168 LSAT. There might be some situations where CLS at sticker is justified, but never for anyone who hasn't maxed out their LSAT potential.

K-JD and WE does matter in this economy. Grades are no longer everything and people with WE outperform their grades and do better generally every time as long as they spin it well.

Suspiciously vague implies OP has no idea what he wants to do with his law degree and is just making things up as he goes to justify going to law school.

CLS is not the best place to go for PI. It is well known that their PI career office hasn't been the best. Plus, their LRAP isn't better than its peer schools or even some schools that are lesser ranked. Things are always uncertain and it is indeed ridiculous to go to CLS if you PI committed since the CLS prestige won't translate as effectively in PI vs. Biglaw or anything else.

[timbs4339]

OP: You need to take money at somewhere or think long and hard about retaking.

I graduated in 2012. Many of my friends did the 200K debt and biglaw thing and are absolutely miserable. Not only miserable, but they know that once they leave in 3 years, they will STILL have six-figures of debt. They are paying like 75% of their gross income to the government in taxes+loans. Not how a lot of people want to spend their late 20s.

Luckily I had a large scholly, so I graduated with around 110K of debt. But it came down to the wire- weeks before graduation- before I secured a FT legal position, and not having WE was a huge reason why it took so long. Just median grades isn't enough to be BIGLAW SECURE anymore.

[Bronck]

Where is the data that supports CLS costing astronomically more than other highly ranked schools? As far as I can tell CLS is just slightly more expensive than some private tier 1 and 2 schools — slightly more translates to around $3K a year, if that. Granted, I am using the TLS data from the “law school tab” and most of the school data has not been updated in years.

And yes, there are other T14 schools that will net the median student the same a $160K paycheck for slightly less. The upside of CLS is the prospect of landing that dream job even if you are uncomfortably below median. Not many schools provide that type of a safety net cushion.

Cost of Living?

CoL is grossly exaggerated by people. You could easily take out 5-7k less than the CoL listed and be fine, assuming you cook your own meals and don't eat out / drink that often. That, of course, doesn't change the fact that it's still crazy expensive and for most people not a good choice to attend at sticker.

[quiver]

K-JD and WE does matter in this economy. Grades are no longer everything and people with WE outperform their grades and do better generally every time as long as they spin it well.

That's interesting. People with WE do better generally every time? Which is it: they do better generally or they do better every time?

Setting that aside, I obviously agree that WE can help. However, I think you may be overstating its importance a bit.

Suspiciously vague implies OP has no idea what he wants to do with his law degree and is just making things up as he goes to justify going to law school.

I'm sure it does. I was merely saying that there is no evidence to think the OP's ambiguity should be suspicious. Even if the OP is undecided, that's not necessarily a bad thing. If OP wants PI prior to law school and later decides that s/he wants biglaw instead, then s/he is at one of the best schools for biglaw in the country. Both Professor Campos and yourself both say that's the major advantage of CLS anyway.

CLS is not the best place to go for PI. It is well known that their PI career office hasn't been the best. Plus, their LRAP isn't better than its peer schools or even some schools that are lesser ranked.

That's all great but it is neither what I said nor is it what the OP is asking. The question is whether CLS is worth sticker. I don't care that their LRAP isn't the best, everyone knows that, but CLS still has a very good LRAP overall. Obviously places like NYU have a more PI focus (and their CSO is correspondingly more helpful) but CLS can still put someone in a great position for PI jobs. If you want to say that the OP should retake the LSAT in order to go to YSH then I'd agree, but that's not what the OP asked.

Things are always uncertain and it is indeed ridiculous to go to CLS if you PI committed since the CLS prestige won't translate as effectively in PI vs. Biglaw or anything else.

I'd love to know where you're getting that from. The majority of CLS grads obviously go to law firms but I fail to see how that means CLS's prestige doesn't translate to other areas. I'm in no way trying to say that CLS is the best school for PI or that someone should choose CLS over peer schools if they want PI. But to say that "it is indeed ridiculous" to go to CLS if you're aiming for PI is, itself, ridiculous.

OP's best option is to retake the LSAT for more money at CLS and/or a YSH acceptance. Extra work experience would probably also help and almost certainly would not hurt. Nobody disputes this.

[Real Madrid]

I think it's time we dispense with "Is X Worth Sticker?" threads here on TLS. The overwhelming majority of posters on this board are extremely pessimistic and will answer with a resounding no regardless of the school being considered.

[bk1]

I think it's time we dispense with "Is X Worth Sticker?" threads here on TLS. The overwhelming majority of posters on this board are extremely pessimistic and will answer with a resounding no regardless of the school being considered.

Or, you know, a lot of people legitimately think that no law school is worth 300k debt. But yeah, your retarded explanation makes a lot of sense too.

[sinfiery]

I'd go at 300k but I would never call anyone pessimistic for not wanting to take out 300k to do so, muchless extremely pessimistic..

[TexasAggie13]

I say no. I got admitted to CLS at sticker this year too, and I am taking the money and running at a lower T14. Couldn't be happier with my decision. Besides, the advantage of CLS is an (almost) guaranteed BigLaw job, but if you are set on PI you would just be blowing ~300K for a degree that won't give you much of an advantage. Many of the lower T14 place just about the same as Columbia in regards to PI and you could probably attend one of them at a serious discount.

[Real Madrid]

I think it's time we dispense with "Is X Worth Sticker?" threads here on TLS. The overwhelming majority of posters on this board are extremely pessimistic and will answer with a resounding no regardless of the school being considered.

Or, you know, a lot of people legitimately think that no law school is worth 300k debt. But yeah, your retarded explanation makes a lot of sense too.

Sweet ad hom/straw man combo attack there, man! You in no way negated what I said. Please continue with your stupid posts.

[Ruxin1]

I think it's time we dispense with "Is X Worth Sticker?" threads here on TLS. The overwhelming majority of posters on this board are extremely pessimistic and will answer with a resounding no regardless of the school being considered.

Or, you know, a lot of people legitimately think that no law school is worth 300k debt. But yeah, your retarded explanation makes a lot of sense too.

Sweet ad hom/straw man combo attack there, man! You in no way negated what I said. Congrats!

Just do Boalt at 293k bro

[Real Madrid]

I think it's time we dispense with "Is X Worth Sticker?" threads here on TLS. The overwhelming majority of posters on this board are extremely pessimistic and will answer with a resounding no regardless of the school being considered.

Or, you know, a lot of people legitimately think that no law school is worth 300k debt. But yeah, your retarded explanation makes a lot of sense too.

Sweet ad hom/straw man combo attack there, man! You in no way negated what I said. Congrats!

Just do Boalt at 293k bro

The hell are you talking about? And don't "bro" me. I'm not your "bro."

[MapsMapsMaps]

And don't "bro" me. I'm not your "bro."

Youre obnoxious

[Gunnar Stahl]

The hell are you talking about? And don't "bro" me. I'm not your "bro."

Take a chill pill, buddy.

[Mal Reynolds]

Real Madrid is an absolute shitstain. I'm glad other people are realizing that.

[pastapplicant]

K-JD and WE does matter in this economy. Grades are no longer everything and people with WE outperform their grades and do better generally every time as long as they spin it well.

That's interesting. People with WE do better generally every time? Which is it: they do better generally or they do better every time?

Setting that aside, I obviously agree that WE can help. However, I think you may be overstating its importance a bit.

Suspiciously vague implies OP has no idea what he wants to do with his law degree and is just making things up as he goes to justify going to law school.

I'm sure it does. I was merely saying that there is no evidence to think the OP's ambiguity should be suspicious. Even if the OP is undecided, that's not necessarily a bad thing. If OP wants PI prior to law school and later decides that s/he wants biglaw instead, then s/he is at one of the best schools for biglaw in the country. Both Professor Campos and yourself both say that's the major advantage of CLS anyway.

CLS is not the best place to go for PI. It is well known that their PI career office hasn't been the best. Plus, their LRAP isn't better than its peer schools or even some schools that are lesser ranked.

That's all great but it is neither what I said nor is it what the OP is asking. The question is whether CLS is worth sticker. I don't care that their LRAP isn't the best, everyone knows that, but CLS still has a very good LRAP overall. Obviously places like NYU have a more PI focus (and their CSO is correspondingly more helpful) but CLS can still put someone in a great position for PI jobs. If you want to say that the OP should retake the LSAT in order to go to YSH then I'd agree, but that's not what the OP asked.

Things are always uncertain and it is indeed ridiculous to go to CLS if you PI committed since the CLS prestige won't translate as effectively in PI vs. Biglaw or anything else.

I'd love to know where you're getting that from. The majority of CLS grads obviously go to law firms but I fail to see how that means CLS's prestige doesn't translate to other areas. I'm in no way trying to say that CLS is the best school for PI or that someone should choose CLS over peer schools if they want PI. But to say that "it is indeed ridiculous" to go to CLS if you're aiming for PI is, itself, ridiculous.

OP's best option is to retake the LSAT for more money at CLS and/or a YSH acceptance. Extra work experience would probably also help and almost certainly would not hurt. Nobody disputes this.

dude do you even go to a T14 school right now? the amount of misinformation in your responses indicate that you are just another clueless 0L just spewing nonsense in every thread. No, I am not overstating the importance of WE. Maybe you would know this if you did some form of screeners of callbacks or had direct contact with law firms. And I meant that they do way better in terms of their actual grades. A lot of median students at T14 get passed over for people with "crummy" grades because of WE.

wtf are you talking about. it was already established that CLS was not worth sticker a long time ago. i was merely responding to your dumb post. clearly you haven't been here long because CLS's PI office has been known to be really bad for a while now. and in what world would it be smart to start investing in a nearly 300K education when you are unsure of what you want to do? what if OP decides to switch to biglaw in september during his 2L year? that would basically be suicide.

CLS's prestige isn't going to translate into PI at all. The amount of translates to academia or clerkships is negligible. it just shows how clueless you are when you actually defend going to CLS at sticker price for PI. Maybe you will learn but getting a decent PI job right now and before has been almost always harder than hitting big law. Just stop contributing to threads you know nothing about dude and passing out misinformation.

[Bildungsroman]

dude do you even go to a T14 school right now? the amount of misinformation in your responses indicate that you are just another clueless 0L just spewing nonsense in every thread. No, I am not overstating the importance of WE. Maybe you would know this if you did some form of screeners of callbacks or had direct contact with law firms.

I don't even need to read what you're responding to or the rest of your post to know that you're in ignorant shitstain.

[pastapplicant]

such a tough guy aren't you? those 12K in posts must have really built up your confidence.