Class of 2012 Employment Data Forum

[pinkyandthebrain]

FWIW I just checked their website and 19/35 reported their salaries and 25th percentile is 59K, median is 100K, and 75th percentile is 125K.

thats a lot of non-reporting

Yeah, those numbers don't seem too great. I don't know which other schools report salary percentiles, but Penn's Business/Industry category has 11/12 reporting, with $100k/$130k/$140k 25/50/75 percentiles, and a $144k mean (so 1 or 2 of those grads are really making a lot... haha).

Those sound like MBA starting salaries for Penn...I bet a number are jd/mbas

[SportsFan]

FWIW I just checked their website and 19/35 reported their salaries and 25th percentile is 59K, median is 100K, and 75th percentile is 125K.

thats a lot of non-reporting

Yeah, those numbers don't seem too great. I don't know which other schools report salary percentiles, but Penn's Business/Industry category has 11/12 reporting, with $100k/$130k/$140k 25/50/75 percentiles, and a $144k mean (so 1 or 2 of those grads are really making a lot... haha).

Those sound like MBA starting salaries for Penn...I bet a number are jd/mbas

Oh definitely. I know there are some people here getting JD/MBA's with no intention of going to law firms, and I'm sure thats the same everywhere. But Northwestern only having 19/35 Business people reporting salaries and a 25th percentile of $59k means not all of those are favorable outcomes.

[TexasAggie13]

No doubt. For clarification, all I was trying to say was there is at least SOME that do opt out of the law firm scene and go business. Definitely wasn't trying to say that they all are getting cushy jobs.

[cahwc12]

No doubt. For clarification, all I was trying to say was there is at least SOME that do opt out of the law firm scene and go business. Definitely wasn't trying to say that they all are getting cushy jobs.

I suppose the logical follow-up is then: why did they go to law school? If you mean that they wanted to be lawyers, changed their minds, and still ended up afloat, I don't think that should factor in to either employed or unemployed, because it's the same as if they dropped out after 2L.

Of course you can't really make that delineation given this granularity of NALP data, and since most people who do this probably aren't these idealist career-changers graduating law school, it seems safe to just unilaterally discount them from employed graduates.

[hunter.d]

I think government jobs need to be divided between Federal and State/Local the way clerkships are. Grads employed in the Federal government got a job in an area that is more competitive than Biglaw. This would give a fuller picture of the amount of self-selection and quality of employment for all the non biglaw/fed clerk.

[rad lulz]

I think government jobs need to be divided between Federal and State/Local the way clerkships are. Grads employed in the Federal government got a job in an area that is more competitive than Biglaw. This would give a fuller picture of the amount of self-selection and quality of employment for all the non biglaw/fed clerk.

It's not the same dood

There are plenty of people who'd rather be DA/PD than work at some random agency like HUD or whatever.

[Ruxin1]

I think government jobs need to be divided between Federal and State/Local the way clerkships are. Grads employed in the Federal government got a job in an area that is more competitive than Biglaw. This would give a fuller picture of the amount of self-selection and quality of employment for all the non biglaw/fed clerk.

It's not the same dood

There are plenty of people who'd rather be DA/PD than work at some random agency like HUD or whatever.

Plus both get DAT PLSF right?

[hunter.d]

I think government jobs need to be divided between Federal and State/Local the way clerkships are. Grads employed in the Federal government got a job in an area that is more competitive than Biglaw. This would give a fuller picture of the amount of self-selection and quality of employment for all the non biglaw/fed clerk.

It's not the same dood

There are plenty of people who'd rather be DA/PD than work at some random agency like HUD or whatever.

I know people have different preferences. How many PDs get hired every year v. Lawyers at HUD. I am talking about raw competitiveness which could reflect those grads having good employment prospects generally. There would be no way to know if people self select into less competitive jobs.

[qwertyboard]

Whats happening to Michigan? I was surprised at the ASW to see so many students on the top half saying they didn't want to practice law for a long time......

Edit.

class size?...

[Jaqen]

Whats happening to Michigan? I was surprised at the ASW to see so many students on the top half saying they didn't want to practice law for a long time......

Edit.

class size?...

[qwertyboard]

Whats happening to Michigan? I was surprised at the ASW to see so many students on the top half saying they didn't want to practice law for a long time......

Edit.

class size?...

Asking whats happening to Michigan in regards to employment and then commenting on a separate note that I was surprise to see good students saying they didn't really wanted to work as lawyers.

[skers]

Whats happening to Michigan? I was surprised at the ASW to see so many students on the top half saying they didn't want to practice law for a long time......

Edit.

class size?...

Asking whats happening to Michigan in regards to employment and then commenting on a separate note that I was surprise to see good students saying they didn't really wanted to work as lawyers.

I doubt opportunities are from Michigan are really that drastically different from the rest of the t14, but the general trend raises some questions. The whole national Michigan brand bit probably was more effective with a more robust legal market. Michigan doesn't have a good home market and sits behind other t14 schools in California, the Midwest and to a lesser extent NY. That combined with a larger class size might explain the gap, but it's hard to be sure.

[BigZuck]

Whats happening to Michigan? I was surprised at the ASW to see so many students on the top half saying they didn't want to practice law for a long time......

Edit.

class size?...

Asking whats happening to Michigan in regards to employment and then commenting on a separate note that I was surprise to see good students saying they didn't really wanted to work as lawyers.

I doubt opportunities are from Michigan are really that drastically different from the rest of the t14, but the general trend raises some questions. The whole national Michigan brand bit probably was more effective with a more robust legal market. Michigan doesn't have a good home market and sits behind other t14 schools in California, the Midwest and to a lesser extent NY. That combined with a larger class size might explain the gap, but it's hard to be sure.

Duke doesn't have much of a home market and they are doing just fine. This year they did better than everybody's favorites NU and UVA. I think class size has a lot to do with it.

[WhiskeynCoke]

Berkeley wasn't too hot either:

Federal Clerkships: 6.7% (21/312)
Firms (101+): 53.8% (168/312)
Total: 60.5% (189/312)

I disagree. I think the numbers are pretty decent from Berkeley in context.
- 85.9% FT/Legal, which is 8th. However, it's the ONLY T14 whose number doesn't include school funded Jobs.
- For example, factoring in school-funded jobs puts HLS at ~84.4%, CLS at ~85.3%, NYU at ~79% and UVA at ~80.5%
- 53.8% Firms (101+) puts B at 6th, ahead of HARVARD. (up nearly 13% from last year which was about 41%)
- Berkeley has a school funded rate of only 2.2%. Compare that to NYU's 12.9% or UVA's 15.1%.

I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on Berkeley's relatively strong Big law performance.

[Elston Gunn]

Berkeley wasn't too hot either:

Federal Clerkships: 6.7% (21/312)
Firms (101+): 53.8% (168/312)
Total: 60.5% (189/312)

I disagree. I think the numbers are pretty decent from Berkeley in context.
- 85.9% FT/Legal, which is 8th. However, it's the ONLY T14 whose number doesn't include school funded Jobs.
- For example, factoring in school-funded jobs puts HLS at ~84.4%, CLS at ~85.3%, NYU at ~79% and UVA at ~80.5%
- 53.8% Firms (101+) puts B at 6th, ahead of HARVARD. (up nearly 13% from last year which was about 41%)
- Berkeley has a school funded rate of only 2.2%. Compare that to NYU's 12.9% or UVA's 15.1%.

I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on Berkeley's relatively strong Big law performance.

lol

Also, the distortions created by school-funded jobs are real, but they're still really good things for the students (I posted some stuff in the LST thread that's much more optimistic about outcomes from them then is usually assumed). The fact that NYU and UVA will pay you to work at whatever PI agency you want for a year and Berkeley won't makes UVA and NYU more attractive.

[NoodleyOne]

Berkeley wasn't too hot either:

Federal Clerkships: 6.7% (21/312)
Firms (101+): 53.8% (168/312)
Total: 60.5% (189/312)

I disagree. I think the numbers are pretty decent from Berkeley in context.
- 85.9% FT/Legal, which is 8th. However, it's the ONLY T14 whose number doesn't include school funded Jobs.
- For example, factoring in school-funded jobs puts HLS at ~84.4%, CLS at ~85.3%, NYU at ~79% and UVA at ~80.5%
- 53.8% Firms (101+) puts B at 6th, ahead of HARVARD. (up nearly 13% from last year which was about 41%)
- Berkeley has a school funded rate of only 2.2%. Compare that to NYU's 12.9% or UVA's 15.1%.

I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on Berkeley's relatively strong Big law performance.

lol

Also, the distortions created by school-funded jobs are real, but they're still really good things for the students (I posted some stuff in the LST thread that's much more optimistic about outcomes from them then is usually assumed). The fact that NYU and UVA will pay you to work at whatever PI agency you want for a year and Berkeley won't makes UVA and NYU more attractive.

Bingo. UVA isn't paying you ten bucks an hour to work the circulation desk at the library. You're working as a lawyer.

[BigZuck]

Berkeley wasn't too hot either:

Federal Clerkships: 6.7% (21/312)
Firms (101+): 53.8% (168/312)
Total: 60.5% (189/312)

I disagree. I think the numbers are pretty decent from Berkeley in context.
- 85.9% FT/Legal, which is 8th. However, it's the ONLY T14 whose number doesn't include school funded Jobs.
- For example, factoring in school-funded jobs puts HLS at ~84.4%, CLS at ~85.3%, NYU at ~79% and UVA at ~80.5%
- 53.8% Firms (101+) puts B at 6th, ahead of HARVARD. (up nearly 13% from last year which was about 41%)
- Berkeley has a school funded rate of only 2.2%. Compare that to NYU's 12.9% or UVA's 15.1%.

I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on Berkeley's relatively strong Big law performance.

lol

Also, the distortions created by school-funded jobs are real, but they're still really good things for the students (I posted some stuff in the LST thread that's much more optimistic about outcomes from them then is usually assumed). The fact that NYU and UVA will pay you to work at whatever PI agency you want for a year and Berkeley won't makes UVA and NYU more attractive.

Bingo. UVA isn't paying you ten bucks an hour to work the circulation desk at the library. You're working as a lawyer.

Source? Not saying you're lying but how did you find this out?

[Rahviveh]

Berkeley wasn't too hot either:

Federal Clerkships: 6.7% (21/312)
Firms (101+): 53.8% (168/312)
Total: 60.5% (189/312)

I disagree. I think the numbers are pretty decent from Berkeley in context.
- 85.9% FT/Legal, which is 8th. However, it's the ONLY T14 whose number doesn't include school funded Jobs.
- For example, factoring in school-funded jobs puts HLS at ~84.4%, CLS at ~85.3%, NYU at ~79% and UVA at ~80.5%
- 53.8% Firms (101+) puts B at 6th, ahead of HARVARD. (up nearly 13% from last year which was about 41%)
- Berkeley has a school funded rate of only 2.2%. Compare that to NYU's 12.9% or UVA's 15.1%.

I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on Berkeley's relatively strong Big law performance.

lol

Also, the distortions created by school-funded jobs are real, but they're still really good things for the students (I posted some stuff in the LST thread that's much more optimistic about outcomes from them then is usually assumed). The fact that NYU and UVA will pay you to work at whatever PI agency you want for a year and Berkeley won't makes UVA and NYU more attractive.

Is it possible Boalt kids are more successful at securing the jobs they want so they don't have to rely on school funded jobs as much? Or does Boalt just not have the funding for a generous program like UVA? Curious to know the answer.

[Elston Gunn]

Bingo. UVA isn't paying you ten bucks an hour to work the circulation desk at the library. You're working as a lawyer.

Source? Not saying you're lying but how did you find this out?

Look at what I posted in the LST thread (page 4 I think). They're lawyer jobs, at least at UVA.

[justonemoregame]

this thread could use a lil real madrid

[WhiskeynCoke]

Berkeley wasn't too hot either:

Federal Clerkships: 6.7% (21/312)
Firms (101+): 53.8% (168/312)
Total: 60.5% (189/312)

I disagree. I think the numbers are pretty decent from Berkeley in context.
- 85.9% FT/Legal, which is 8th. However, it's the ONLY T14 whose number doesn't include school funded Jobs.
- For example, factoring in school-funded jobs puts HLS at ~84.4%, CLS at ~85.3%, NYU at ~79% and UVA at ~80.5%
- 53.8% Firms (101+) puts B at 6th, ahead of HARVARD. (up nearly 13% from last year which was about 41%)
- Berkeley has a school funded rate of only 2.2%. Compare that to NYU's 12.9% or UVA's 15.1%.

I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on Berkeley's relatively strong Big law performance.

lol

Also, the distortions created by school-funded jobs are real, but they're still really good things for the students (I posted some stuff in the LST thread that's much more optimistic about outcomes from them then is usually assumed). The fact that NYU and UVA will pay you to work at whatever PI agency you want for a year and Berkeley won't makes UVA and NYU more attractive.

Silly me. I forgot about all the self-selection from all the school-funded gunners. Who wants big law when you can get subsidized by your school. I definitely haven't heard this argument from any shady law school deans.

[Elston Gunn]

Berkeley wasn't too hot either:

Federal Clerkships: 6.7% (21/312)
Firms (101+): 53.8% (168/312)
Total: 60.5% (189/312)

I disagree. I think the numbers are pretty decent from Berkeley in context.
- 85.9% FT/Legal, which is 8th. However, it's the ONLY T14 whose number doesn't include school funded Jobs.
- For example, factoring in school-funded jobs puts HLS at ~84.4%, CLS at ~85.3%, NYU at ~79% and UVA at ~80.5%
- 53.8% Firms (101+) puts B at 6th, ahead of HARVARD. (up nearly 13% from last year which was about 41%)
- Berkeley has a school funded rate of only 2.2%. Compare that to NYU's 12.9% or UVA's 15.1%.

I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on Berkeley's relatively strong Big law performance.

lol

Also, the distortions created by school-funded jobs are real, but they're still really good things for the students (I posted some stuff in the LST thread that's much more optimistic about outcomes from them then is usually assumed). The fact that NYU and UVA will pay you to work at whatever PI agency you want for a year and Berkeley won't makes UVA and NYU more attractive.

Silly me. I forgot about all the self-selection from all the school-funded gunners. Who wants big law when you can get subsidized by your school. I definitely haven't heard this argument from any shady law school deans.

Well, feel free to be an asshole about it, but the fact that the screwed Berkeley grads have to work at Starbucks and the screwed UVA grads work at Public Defenders offices as attorneys is an actual difference. 32 of 40 school funded UVA students from 2010 have real lawyer jobs now. I wonder how many of the screwed Berkeley grads whose school so nobly didn't game the system by paying them to work as lawyers are even using their law degrees. Cynicism is healthy on this stuff, but you can take it too far.

[WhiskeynCoke]

Berkeley wasn't too hot either:

Federal Clerkships: 6.7% (21/312)
Firms (101+): 53.8% (168/312)
Total: 60.5% (189/312)

I disagree. I think the numbers are pretty decent from Berkeley in context.
- 85.9% FT/Legal, which is 8th. However, it's the ONLY T14 whose number doesn't include school funded Jobs.
- For example, factoring in school-funded jobs puts HLS at ~84.4%, CLS at ~85.3%, NYU at ~79% and UVA at ~80.5%
- 53.8% Firms (101+) puts B at 6th, ahead of HARVARD. (up nearly 13% from last year which was about 41%)
- Berkeley has a school funded rate of only 2.2%. Compare that to NYU's 12.9% or UVA's 15.1%.

I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on Berkeley's relatively strong Big law performance.

lol

Also, the distortions created by school-funded jobs are real, but they're still really good things for the students (I posted some stuff in the LST thread that's much more optimistic about outcomes from them then is usually assumed). The fact that NYU and UVA will pay you to work at whatever PI agency you want for a year and Berkeley won't makes UVA and NYU more attractive.

Bingo. UVA isn't paying you ten bucks an hour to work the circulation desk at the library. You're working as a lawyer.

You're right. it's more like 15 bucks an hour.

[sinfiery]

The important part is that it's not to work the circulation desk.

[WhiskeynCoke]

Well, feel free to be an asshole about it, but the fact that the screwed Berkeley grads have to work at Starbucks and the screwed UVA grads work at Public Defenders offices as attorneys is an actual difference. 32 of 40 school funded UVA students from 2010 have real lawyer jobs now. I wonder how many of the screwed Berkeley grads whose school so nobly didn't game the system by paying them to work as lawyers are even using their law degrees. Cynicism is healthy on this stuff, but you can take it too far.

- Show me one "screwed Berkeley grad working at Starbucks."
- I agree that the school-funded jobs are certainly better than Starbucks (at least experience-wise). Its a lesser of many evils, sure. However, I disagree with your sentiment that UVA employing 15% of its own graduates is a positive statistic. You were presenting it as such. These kids fell into the safety net, they didn't hit a home run,
- The point I was trying to make is that bashing Berkeley as underperforming makes no sense in the context of the rest of the T14, who are obviously licking their wounds.