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Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:21 am
by Debt
I saw people ripping apart the NYU at sticker guy and as someone who is planning on attending Cornell at sticker, this is really starting to worry me.
I based my decision on what I saw on TLS, I had other options with scholarships, but Cornell was the best school I got into with the best employment prospects.
As someone with a 167 and a 3.7, I don't know what would be my best option. My goal is Biglaw for a couple years and hopefully off to something more manageable. I don't know if a school like USC on minor scholarship is worth it.
What do you guys think?
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:44 am
by stuckinthemiddle
It might really depend on your goals.
If you want biglaw and the "better" exit options afforded by starting at biglaw, then I'd take Cornell with it's 50%ish placement. If you want anything else that won't pay you enough to service the debt of sticker, then you're obviously better off going to the cheapest place.
I'm also considering Cornell at sticker, and am scared out of my mind.
I'm about 50/50 right now with my decision.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:32 am
by guinness1547
This thread is relevant to my splitter status.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:56 am
by bizzybone1313
Why don't you guys play hardball with Cornell? Tell them you won't attend unless you get a $30K discount or something.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:03 am
by banjo
Debt wrote:As someone with a 167 and a 3.7, I don't know what would be my best option.
Probably retake for 5-10 more points and reapply.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:35 am
by sublime
..
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:28 am
by WhatOurBodiesAreFor
bunch of tls dudes are going to say youre an idiot. youre not. its not the risk to take if your risk adverse or the one to take if your debt adverse. but its not a stupid decision at all.
should you leave a high paying banking job you love for cornell sticker? should u not try out your HYP undergrad degree and pay cornell sticker? answers are no. it just comes down yo what your own opportunity cost is and - tls will get me here - your gut feeling.
similar situation for me if you havent noticed.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:44 am
by cahwc12
Debt wrote:I saw people ripping apart the NYU at sticker guy and as someone who is planning on attending Cornell at sticker, this is really starting to worry me.
I based my decision on what I saw on TLS, I had other options with scholarships, but Cornell was the best school I got into with the best employment prospects.
As someone with a 167 and a 3.7, I don't know what would be my best option. My goal is Biglaw for a couple years and hopefully off to something more manageable. I don't know if a school like USC on minor scholarship is worth it.
What do you guys think?
I'm pretty debt averse, and I chose to walk away from ostensibly Cornell sticker this cycle (and I absolutely am in love with Cornell, but frankly it's just too much money). Here's how I would rate your options:
Retake >>> 75% at a good T1 > Full ride at a strong regional T2 > Cornell at Sticker >> Full ride at a T2 >>> some BS scholarship from T1 (essentially still sticker).
edit: I also want to add that, unlike you, retaking for me isn't necessarily going to significantly reduce Cornell's asking price. For you, a few points might net you a serious discount.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:53 am
by drive4showLSAT4dough
Obviously if you can retake that is the best call because it gives you the opportunity to save tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars in tuition expenses.
If you refuse to retake, then the questions depends on opportunity cost and debt aversion. Those are both personal factors which the TLS crowd cannot adequately judge (though they will still try).
Also, do not resign yourself from negotiating. Cornell cares about their yield and they have already made an investment by admitting you. Get them to take something of the price.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:56 am
by Lincoln
Graduating 3L who made this decision. Feel free to PM me.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:06 pm
by megagnarley
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:bunch of tls dudes are going to say youre an idiot. youre not. its not the risk to take if your risk adverse or the one to take if your debt adverse. but its not a stupid decision at all.
should you leave a high paying banking job you love for cornell sticker? should u not try out your HYP undergrad degree and pay cornell sticker? answers are no. it just comes down yo what your own opportunity cost is and - tls will get me here - your gut feeling.
similar situation for me if you havent noticed.
Dude, I know you're trying to validate you own choice, but citing you "gut" when taking out a 1/4 million in non-dischargeable debt is just foolish.
Calling it stupid might be too bold without understanding the opportunity cost, but that kind of of investment with those odds of return is less than wise. Don't go.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:35 pm
by Robespierre
If you're financing it all with loans, that's 250K-300K after accrued interest, yikes. Even if you get in "a couple of years of Biglaw," which you say is your goal, that's gonna be hell to pay back. Personally I wouldn't do it.
But it's not a no-brainer. It might be the right call for a person who:
- feels there's no way he could retake and score higher (or is out of retakes),
- doesn't have other good employment options,
- is burning to practice law,
- doesn't have any undergrad debt,
- has NYC as his target market, AND
- can psychologically bear the extreme debt.
(OR is dead-set on public interest, for which there would be loan forgiveness. But that's not you.)
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:43 pm
by Iamnotworthy
Scholarships aren't out yet bro. This thread is premature
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:51 pm
by WhatOurBodiesAreFor
megagnarley wrote:WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:bunch of tls dudes are going to say youre an idiot. youre not. its not the risk to take if your risk adverse or the one to take if your debt adverse. but its not a stupid decision at all.
should you leave a high paying banking job you love for cornell sticker? should u not try out your HYP undergrad degree and pay cornell sticker? answers are no. it just comes down yo what your own opportunity cost is and - tls will get me here - your gut feeling.
similar situation for me if you havent noticed.
Dude, I know you're trying to validate you own choice, but citing you "gut" when taking out a 1/4 million in non-dischargeable debt is just foolish.
Calling it stupid might be too bold without understanding the opportunity cost, but that kind of of investment with those odds of return is less than wise. Don't go.
Hey dudes: don't listen to me just trying to validate my own choice. I'm really so drawn to the prestige of THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN that I must assume 250K of debt. I'm using no rationale in this decision besides THE PRESTIGE of the UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN.
Damn, some of you are annoying
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:20 pm
by iMisto
I don't think you can truly compare this thread to the one regarding NYU. Theoretically, somebody in at NYU probably/maybe has a scholly at Cornell - which doesn't perform radically different from NYU in the recent NLJ250 info.
The choice is extremely personal. For example, I will be attending Cornell at or near sticker, but have 0 undergrad debt and pretty small opportunity costs. And, based on my background, the level of debt isn't enough to deter me (though it is a bit scary). Moreover, I definitely want to end up in NYC.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:13 pm
by PRgradBYU
Iamnotworthy wrote:Scholarships aren't out yet bro. This thread is premature
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:30 pm
by DaleCooper
The first page or two of the NYU thread is ridiculous and full of ridiculous people who go to schools like Tulane but for some reason feel a compulsion to rip on NYU in every. single. f***ing. thread.
(No names.)
As for both threads, the answer is kind of the same: If it's your best option (not just among law schools, but in life), it's worth it. If it's not your best option, it's not worth it. Cornell is definitely good enough to justify sticker in a vacuum... it's a good school with a solid alumni base and a small class, their employment placement is good, and the average person who goes there at sticker will be better off for it. Not
everyone will, however... if you are risk-averse, you should probably not go to law school at all because outside of HYS you are either setting yourself up for a chance of unemployment or a chance of debt you can't pay back (and let's face it, if you can get into HYS, you probably have other options that may or may not be superior). But if you are willing to take a risk on law school in general, then in a vacuum, yes, Cornell is worth it.
That doesn't mean you should necessarily choose it over other options, however. Wait and see what all your options are (March is way too early to be deciding), and then come back and get some advice.
In the meantime, best of luck with the scholarship haggling.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:02 pm
by megagnarley
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:megagnarley wrote:WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:bunch of tls dudes are going to say youre an idiot. youre not. its not the risk to take if your risk adverse or the one to take if your debt adverse. but its not a stupid decision at all.
should you leave a high paying banking job you love for cornell sticker? should u not try out your HYP undergrad degree and pay cornell sticker? answers are no. it just comes down yo what your own opportunity cost is and - tls will get me here - your gut feeling.
similar situation for me if you havent noticed.
Dude, I know you're trying to validate you own choice, but citing you "gut" when taking out a 1/4 million in non-dischargeable debt is just foolish.
Calling it stupid might be too bold without understanding the opportunity cost, but that kind of of investment with those odds of return is less than wise. Don't go.
Hey dudes: don't listen to me just trying to validate my own choice. I'm really so drawn to the prestige of THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN that I must assume 250K of debt. I'm using no rationale in this decision besides THE PRESTIGE of the UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN.
Damn, some of you are annoying
lol wut?
If you're implying a referral to prestige in my post, there was none.
If you are non-facetiously stating your rationale stems from prestige, that is foolish.
Not sure what minor-league that argument wins in, but I'm not here to argue. I'm here to say that, from a business standpoint, taking out 250k for a 40% chance of favorable ROI is less than wise. Period. Fin.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:12 am
by WhatOurBodiesAreFor
megagnarley wrote:If you're implying a referral to prestige
If you are non-facetiously stating your rationale stems from prestige, that is foolish.
Not sure what minor-league that argument wins in....
What? You sound like a cunt. Let's speak in English bruh
megagnarley wrote:I'm here to say that, from a business standpoint, taking out 250k for a 40% chance of favorable ROI is less than wise. Period. Fin.
Seriously? Not everyone who goes to law school wants biglaw. Sure, it's probably a healthy majority (especially at non-HYS T14) but some people actually want PI or clerkships. Some people go back home to work at mid-sized firms. Don't present a school's % biglaw as if that's the only way to measure it, as if all other people tragically fail.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:58 am
by Balthy
megagnarley wrote:I'm here to say that, from a business standpoint, taking out 250k for a 40% chance of favorable ROI is less than wise. Period. Fin.
Are you kidding me? 95% of small businesses fail within the first 5 years and you can VERY EASILY accrue that kind of debt. I'm not really taking one side or other, but standards of acceptable risk in business are very different from TLS wisdom.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:22 am
by Clearly
I will agree that the TLS negativity seems to be hitting new highs. Very quick to talk about the debt, but rarely factoring in alternatives. a 50% shot at biglaw is not a terrible position to be in for some candidates, and the remaining 50% aren't in great shape, but many will go into public interest with lrap and forgiveness (without the tax burden in PI), and after factoring in clerkships, the number in shitlaw without PI benefits isn't overwhelming, and will be on LRAP with the ability to at least avoid bankruptcy and hopefully have the foresight to save money for the tax bomb when LRAP is up (while the majority think the tax burden will be lifted before then anyway).
All this is counting on the economy staying as bad as it is now, while many indicators suggest improvements coming.
If you have a valuable degree in a good market and job opportunities, consider forgoing LS, but if you're like many candidates, there IS no job for you, you have a BA in uselessness, in a saturated market, and opportunity costs of attending are $0.00 and three years. Splitters in particular are not exactly facing alternatives to the game plan here. My 2.8 GPA from a state school will not get me a job in the super saturated economy literally filled with more experienced people fighting for jobs, but my 176 stands to get me into a school with a 50% biglaw shot, mitigated by the not entirely bankrupt alternatives for the other 50%. Is a coinflip for biglaw a safe bet? No, certainly not. But anyone who tells you T14 at sticker is bad, without analyzing your alternatives given your life situation may not be wrong, but certainly doesn't have sufficient information to give you an accurate answer in any regard.
I personally feel in my case the 50% big law shot is the best of a bad situation for me. An MBA is worthless from any school I'd get into. There are NO jobs here, I'm not particularly debt averse, I have 0 from undergrad. Tell me what you would do if you DIDN'T go to Cornell, and I'd tell you if I think it's worth a coin flip, for many, it is.
Please don't quote, removing later.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:10 am
by NYstate
superdingle2000 wrote:megagnarley wrote:I'm here to say that, from a business standpoint, taking out 250k for a 40% chance of favorable ROI is less than wise. Period. Fin.
Are you kidding me? 95% of small businesses fail within the first 5 years and you can VERY EASILY accrue that kind of debt. I'm not really taking one side or other, but standards of acceptable risk in business are very different from TLS wisdom.
That business debt would be dischargable in bankruptcy right? I feel this is a big difference. You either repay student loans or you get them discharged in 20 years with a tax bomb at the end.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:45 am
by NYstate
Eh, I don't care what anyone decides. I just want them to have a clear understanding of what they are signing up for, I think most people have no idea. I think at least a third of the people from T14 schools will regret paying sticker, and probably more. I have never seen any numbers of how many people are using LRAP successfully. Some schools in the T14 have strict requirements to get in and stay in their LRAP programs. And LRAP jobs aren't exactly plentiful. I also am not a fan of going to law school and counting on IBR, but people do it I guess.
People need to understand:
what their monthly loan payment will be,
what budget they will be living on and for how long to just repay that debt,
what biglaw is like, chances of getting biglaw, chances of remaining in biglaw,
lack of government/PI jobs, need to work for free to get many government/PI jobs, gov't/PI jobs are not just automatic backup for failing biglaw,
risk of no offers from 2L, complete lack of 3L hiring (82 nationwide last year?), insane levels of competition for all jobs,
need to get grades, bid well, interview well, yet grades and school and LR don't guarantee a job,
need for ties in many markets, extremely localized nature of hiring, inaccurate and misleading job reports from schools,
and, anything else that matters like needing to pass the bar exam and get a license.
oh yes, a biggie, the fucking mandatory curve which few seem to grasp until they get their grades back.
There may be no other option for most (all?) 0Ls that has a chance of making $160,000 in three years. I think that most 0Ls see that salary and become transfixed. I think that every single 0L believes they are the ones who will get biglaw. People deny thinking they are special snowflakes,and claim to understand the percentages may at best be a 50% shot (or whatever it is), but I don't think that any single person goes into law school mentally or emotionally prepared to be on the down side of that coin flip.
Just my opinion.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:18 am
by Clearly
NYstate wrote:Eh, I don't care what anyone decides. I just want them to have a clear understanding of what they are signing up for, I think most people have no idea. I think at least a third of the people from T14 schools will regret paying sticker, and probably more. I have never seen any numbers of how many people are using LRAP successfully. Some schools in the T14 have strict requirements to get in and stay in their LRAP programs. And LRAP jobs aren't exactly plentiful. I also am not a fan of going to law school and counting on IBR, but people do it I guess.
People need to understand:
what their monthly loan payment will be,
what budget they will be living on and for how long to just repay that debt,
what biglaw is like, chances of getting biglaw, chances of remaining in biglaw,
lack of government/PI jobs, need to work for free to get many government/PI jobs, gov't/PI jobs are not just automatic backup for failing biglaw,
risk of no offers from 2L, complete lack of 3L hiring (82 nationwide last year?), insane levels of competition for all jobs,
need to get grades, bid well, interview well, yet grades and school and LR don't guarantee a job,
need for ties in many markets, extremely localized nature of hiring, inaccurate and misleading job reports from schools,
and, anything else that matters like needing to pass the bar exam and get a license.
oh yes, a biggie, the fucking mandatory curve which few seem to grasp until they get their grades back.
There may be no other option for most (all?) 0Ls that has a chance of making $160,000 in three years. I think that most 0Ls see that salary and become transfixed. I think that every single 0L believes they are the ones who will get biglaw. People deny thinking they are special snowflakes,and claim to understand the percentages may at best be a 50% shot (or whatever it is), but I don't think that any single person goes into law school mentally or emotionally prepared to be on the down side of that coin flip.
Just my opinion.
I'm in agreement with most of your points (as you can see above), my only opinion is I can't stand people saying don't flip a coin for biglaw, when they don't know the rest of the metaphorical coins they carry. A true desire to practice law, A persons GPA, institution, major, and local economy may produce no meaningful employment chances. The coin flip of a probable profitability of other grad degrees one might pursue could produce odds worse then the 50 50 biglaw flip. There are times when the best option someone has might actually be shoot for biglaw. Those that fail will at least have lrap and IBR, which are survivable programs that have flaws, but protect us from the worst case scenario of utter default. I'm not saying T14 is right for everyone, but I am saying its not
wrong for everyone.
Re: Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread)
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:22 am
by drive4showLSAT4dough
NYstate wrote:Eh, I don't care what anyone decides. I just want them to have a clear understanding of what they are signing up for, I think most people have no idea. I think at least a third of the people from T14 schools will regret paying sticker, and probably more. I have never seen any numbers of how many people are using LRAP successfully. Some schools in the T14 have strict requirements to get in and stay in their LRAP programs. And LRAP jobs aren't exactly plentiful. I also am not a fan of going to law school and counting on IBR, but people do it I guess.
People need to understand:
what their monthly loan payment will be,
what budget they will be living on and for how long to just repay that debt,
what biglaw is like, chances of getting biglaw, chances of remaining in biglaw,
lack of government/PI jobs, need to work for free to get many government/PI jobs, gov't/PI jobs are not just automatic backup for failing biglaw,
risk of no offers from 2L, complete lack of 3L hiring (82 nationwide last year?), insane levels of competition for all jobs,
need to get grades, bid well, interview well, yet grades and school and LR don't guarantee a job,
need for ties in many markets, extremely localized nature of hiring, inaccurate and misleading job reports from schools,
and, anything else that matters like needing to pass the bar exam and get a license.
oh yes, a biggie, the fucking mandatory curve which few seem to grasp until they get their grades back.
There may be no other option for most (all?) 0Ls that has a chance of making $160,000 in three years. I think that most 0Ls see that salary and become transfixed. I think that every single 0L believes they are the ones who will get biglaw. People deny thinking they are special snowflakes,and claim to understand the percentages may at best be a 50% shot (or whatever it is), but I don't think that any single person goes into law school mentally or emotionally prepared to be on the down side of that coin flip.
Just my opinion.
You realize that the people you're trying to inform are generally not a part of the TLS community, right? And you realize that within the TLS community you said essentially nothing novel, right?