Is NYU at sticker worth it? Forum

[JamesDean1955]

.

[hume85]

3L's/recent grads who missed the biglaw boat yet comment on biglaw QoL (and other topics that only biglaw associates should be answering) is about as useful as 0L's commenting.

You are an insufferable idiot.

[Humbert Humbert]

I've said it before, but I just figured I'd chime in here too and reiterate that people who claim that a biglaw salary will leave you destitute in Manhattan are either trolling or else they've never lived here. I've been living in Manhattan for years, the most money I've made in all this time is around $40K/yr, and I wouldn't trade these years for anything. Sure, there have been months where I've had to scrounge now and then, but overall my quality of life is fine.

(doesn't have almost $300,000 of non dischargeable debt)

(doesn't bill 2300 hours a year)

"Quality of life" is subjective and dependent on things other than money (i.e. hours worked, mental health, etc.). The argument I, and a few others, made is that if you assume 45k is your take home pay after monthly loan payments and taxes, then it is not hard to live comfortably from a financial standpoint. Yes, there are some built in assumptions here - mostly that you last long enough to service that debt - but, if you grant that, then 45k is enough to do just fine in NYC.

I don't grant your assumptions

I'm crushed.

[rad lulz]

3L's/recent grads who missed the biglaw boat yet comment on biglaw QoL (and other topics that only biglaw associates should be answering) is about as useful as 0L's commenting.

Doesn't stop you bro

[Ialdabaoth]

160k after tax is approx 105k in NYC. 250k is approx 60k a year if you pay it back in 5 years.

Should also note your salary will increase from 160k over 5 years.


So can you live comfortably on 45k after tax income in NYC?

(This question is completely dependent upon your other options btw op)

I live comfortably in Brooklyn on 30-35k after tax. I have money to put away for savings/retirement account and discretionary for vacations/misc.

Care to share your budget? How much do you spend on clothes, rent, how many roommates, how far is your commute, food budget,etc? What are your hobbies?

I dont see how this is possible or sustainable. Please let me know how this works!

edit: dont assume your take home is $105,000.

Sure, I'd be happy to outline a bit of what I spend. Also, you're correct that $105,000 is a bit optimistic for a $160,000; I'd say it's closer to $95k. The Michigan calculator puts the net at $8,070, so that would be $96,840, and I've come up with similar figures using paycheck calculators.

My monthly expenses:
Rent - $750 for my half of a $1,500 HUGE (and not even just by NYC standards) one bedroom in a great up-and-coming/gentrifying/whatever you want to call it neighborhood in Brooklyn
Electricity/cooking gas/internet - $50 (of about $100 total) This will likely be higher in the summer due to AC.
Student loan - $50
MTA card - $113 (My commute to the Financial District takes 20-25 min.)
Health insurance - $70
Food (groceries/take out/restaurants/bars) - $250
Gym - $65

All of these essentials only total about $1,350, and I probably average (hard to calculate with overtime variance) about $2,750 per month in paychecks. Plus, my transportation and health insurance are taken out of my paycheck directly (pre-tax), so I still have quite a bit leftover for savings/discretionary/etc.

Hope that helps.

[NYstate]

I've lived in manhattan all my life. I have no idea how someone manages to live on less than $50,000 without major life compromise. If you are ok with living like a student, I guess. Just FYI my mom made more than that as take home salary in 1984 and she had a roommate on west 83. Her rent was $400 because she shared a two bedroom rent stabilized place.

She didnt have money to buy whatever she wanted or go out to eat all the time or go on vacations.

I don't get it. I guess I piss away money. I need to revamp my spending habits.

[grapefruits]

3L's/recent grads who missed the biglaw boat yet comment on biglaw QoL (and other topics that only biglaw associates should be answering) is about as useful as 0L's commenting.

You are an insufferable idiot.

For real. This guy has consistently said the dumbest shit, and seems to think himself some type of authority.

[rickgrimes69]

160k after tax is approx 105k in NYC. 250k is approx 60k a year if you pay it back in 5 years.

Should also note your salary will increase from 160k over 5 years.


So can you live comfortably on 45k after tax income in NYC?

(This question is completely dependent upon your other options btw op)

I live comfortably in Brooklyn on 30-35k after tax. I have money to put away for savings/retirement account and discretionary for vacations/misc.

Care to share your budget? How much do you spend on clothes, rent, how many roommates, how far is your commute, food budget,etc? What are your hobbies?

I dont see how this is possible or sustainable. Please let me know how this works!

edit: dont assume your take home is $105,000.

Sure, I'd be happy to outline a bit of what I spend. Also, you're correct that $105,000 is a bit optimistic for a $160,000; I'd say it's closer to $95k. The Michigan calculator puts the net at $8,070, so that would be $96,840, and I've come up with similar figures using paycheck calculators.

My monthly expenses:
Rent - $750 for my half of a $1,500 HUGE (and not even just by NYC standards) one bedroom in a great up-and-coming/gentrifying/whatever you want to call it neighborhood in Brooklyn
Electricity/cooking gas/internet - $50 (of about $100 total) This will likely be higher in the summer due to AC.
Student loan - $50
MTA card - $113 (My commute to the Financial District takes 20-25 min.)
Health insurance - $70
Food (groceries/take out/restaurants/bars) - $250
Gym - $65

All of these essentials only total about $1,350, and I probably average (hard to calculate with overtime variance) about $2,750 per month in paychecks. Plus, my transportation and health insurance are taken out of my paycheck directly (pre-tax), so I still have quite a bit leftover for savings/discretionary/etc.

Hope that helps.

Just wanted to say that based on your description of neighborhood, rent, and commute time, I'm guessing you live in Williamsburg. I have two things to say to that.

1. Enjoy the L / G breaking down every 5 minutes
2. Williamsburg is filled with hipsters and I won't stand for it

Splurge a little and live somewhere nice. You're a professional now.

[Real Madrid]

Aberzombie thinks DOJ or SEC or State or Goldman or McKinsey or some super-prestigious tax boutique is a decisively inferior outcome to some $130k/year firm nobody's ever heard of in a third-rate city that's most famous for its sports team, and that said firm is just as "desirable" an outcome as Wachtell or S&C.

While I agree with you that NYU is worth sticker, this part is ridiculous. Going to NYU and expecting any of the things you've listed is as ridiculous or even more so than going to law school and expecting an A3 clerkship from a non-HYS T14 or expecting to transfer up from a T2 to a T14, etc. etc. I get that you're going to NYU, but Penn has been outperforming NYU for some time now in firm job placement. You're just gonna have to deal with it.

[Ialdabaoth]

Just wanted to say that based on your description of neighborhood, rent, and commute time, I'm guessing you live in Williamsburg. I have two things to say to that.

1. Enjoy the L / G breaking down every 5 minutes
2. Williamsburg is filled with hipsters and I won't stand for it

Splurge a little and live somewhere nice. You're a professional now.

Haha, no, my neighborhood is possibly on its way to being the next Williamsburg but certainly is not there yet.

Also, it would be hard to find a large one bedroom in Williamsburg for $1,500, and it would take longer than 20-25 min to commute to my office in the Financial District from most of W.

[sinfiery]

Paycheck city gives me 103k takehome. Got the 105k from memory.


If we were to do this correctly though, the average would be higher taking into account raises at work that have no added cost to your budget and would all go towards COL after taxes.

The biggest concern is essentially getting biglaw and keeping it. There is data on 1 that should improve slightly in 3 years and no data on the other, but anecdotal evidence that 3-4 is average. 1-2 years short. If you can live on 43k after tax, you could definitely put your raises into your debt and pay it off after 4 years. *


*haven't done the math but probably.

[Ialdabaoth]

I've lived in manhattan all my life. I have no idea how someone manages to live on less than $50,000 without major life compromise. If you are ok with living like a student, I guess. Just FYI my mom made more than that as take home salary in 1984 and she had a roommate on west 83. Her rent was $400 because she shared a two bedroom rent stabilized place.

She didnt have money to buy whatever she wanted or go out to eat all the time or go on vacations.

I don't get it. I guess I piss away money. I need to revamp my spending habits.

I'm not sure if this was directed at me or at one of the other posters, but I really don't think I "live like a student." I eat well, go out for drinks, have money for entertainment in NYC (theatre, concerts, etc.), and live in an apartment and neighborhood that both my girlfriend and I love. I am going on a vacation next week and am planning a trip to Europe for late in 2013 or early 2014. Given, I share a one bedroom in Brooklyn, but no one really "needs" to spend $2,000+ a month on a Manhattan studio.

I'm very careful about tracking my spending and knowing where my money goes (personality more than necessity), but I'm never worried about money.

[smaug_]

I don't get it. I guess I piss away money. I need to revamp my spending habits.

No offense, but you probably do. I think that this is one of the big never spoken things behind TLS- users come from very different economic backgrounds. I'm not going to make any claims about Biglawl QoL or anything like that because I'm clueless. I'm not even going to make any claims about the cost of living in Manhattan because my experience is pretty limited (and I have subsidized housing right now) but some folks on here seem to think that living on a tighter budget is impossible. I get that it goes against the BORN and BRED for SUCCESS AND ACHIEVEMENT ideals of some folks here, and I also get that in terms of clothing and food you're going to probably spend far more as an associate than people do in other areas,

BUT people live on far less than some of the budgets proposed here. I doubt that many people will stick to the budgets they throw out when the say "oh I can totally pay off the debt in 3-5 years" but the budgets in themselves aren't absurd. It's kinda hard to take folks seriously when they come from wealthy backgrounds and don't understand what it's like to scrape by on a low income. People in NYC are scraping by on shit incomes as we speak. I scraped by for a year on a shit income in a different metropolitan area. (We're talking sub $20k income.) Ironically, I think it's easier to save when you're very busy- you don't have time to go out and spend money.

That said, all of this budget talk is worthless because the fact that you can scrape by on shit income doesn't mean that you should therefore take out massive loans. For the vast majority of students, even at T14s (hell, I'd even wager at HYS) whether or not law school is worth it depends almost exclusively on the longitudinal outcomes that await on the other side of Biglaw (if you get big law at all).

[francesfarmer]

Just wanted to say that based on your description of neighborhood, rent, and commute time, I'm guessing you live in Williamsburg. I have two things to say to that.

1. Enjoy the L / G breaking down every 5 minutes
2. Williamsburg is filled with hipsters and I won't stand for it

Splurge a little and live somewhere nice. You're a professional now.

Haha, no, my neighborhood is possibly on its way to being the next Williamsburg but certainly is not there yet.

Also, it would be hard to find a large one bedroom in Williamsburg for $1,500, and it would take longer than 20-25 min to commute to my office in the Financial District from most of W.

Bro we are so neighbors. I bet we shop at the same grocery store.

[toothbrush]

Bro we are so neighbors. I bet we shop at the same grocery store.

[Rahviveh]

I've lived in manhattan all my life. I have no idea how someone manages to live on less than $50,000 without major life compromise. If you are ok with living like a student, I guess. Just FYI my mom made more than that as take home salary in 1984 and she had a roommate on west 83. Her rent was $400 because she shared a two bedroom rent stabilized place.

She didnt have money to buy whatever she wanted or go out to eat all the time or go on vacations.

I don't get it. I guess I piss away money. I need to revamp my spending habits.

I'm not sure if this was directed at me or at one of the other posters, but I really don't think I "live like a student." I eat well, go out for drinks, have money for entertainment in NYC (theatre, concerts, etc.), and live in an apartment and neighborhood that both my girlfriend and I love. I am going on a vacation next week and am planning a trip to Europe for late in 2013 or early 2014. Given, I share a one bedroom in Brooklyn, but no one really "needs" to spend $2,000+ a month on a Manhattan studio.

I'm very careful about tracking my spending and knowing where my money goes (personality more than necessity), but I'm never worried about money.

I need to get an SO then. I can't imagine having a biglaw jerb and still living with roommates

[dixiecupdrinking]

I've lived in manhattan all my life. I have no idea how someone manages to live on less than $50,000 without major life compromise. If you are ok with living like a student, I guess. Just FYI my mom made more than that as take home salary in 1984 and she had a roommate on west 83. Her rent was $400 because she shared a two bedroom rent stabilized place.

She didnt have money to buy whatever she wanted or go out to eat all the time or go on vacations.

I don't get it. I guess I piss away money. I need to revamp my spending habits.

I'm not sure if this was directed at me or at one of the other posters, but I really don't think I "live like a student." I eat well, go out for drinks, have money for entertainment in NYC (theatre, concerts, etc.), and live in an apartment and neighborhood that both my girlfriend and I love. I am going on a vacation next week and am planning a trip to Europe for late in 2013 or early 2014. Given, I share a one bedroom in Brooklyn, but no one really "needs" to spend $2,000+ a month on a Manhattan studio.

I'm very careful about tracking my spending and knowing where my money goes (personality more than necessity), but I'm never worried about money.

Agreed. You can easily live on $40-50,000 pre-tax and still have a social life, go on vacations, etc. Rent is really the big thing, so if you keep that cost down it's extremely easy to get by on not that much money in NYC.

IME most of the people who freak out about the cost of living in NYC are the people who move here from afar and don't make an effort to control their costs. You can't just live in the Village and eat at every place that gets written up in NY Magazine 5 nights a week and go out for $15 cocktails, because yeah that adds up. But it's also not "what it costs to live in NY," it's what it costs to act like a socialite. (Obviously this doesn't apply to nystate, I don't know what to attribute your impression to.)

[NDJ]

fwiw - i live in washington heights and pay almost no money in rent. yeah i know its a crappy area, but its in manhattan and at most a 30 minute subway ride from midtown, and the subway is 2 blocks from me. my room is big, and even though the area around my building is not the nicest i live close walking distance from parks, forest, water etc, and have a grocery store downstairs with everything i need.

the point is, there are a lot of ways to save money in NYC (and surrounding boroughs). if you are smart with money and OK with not living in the trendiest area, and dont spend too much money on luxuries, you can live quite comfortably on a modest salary. as has been alluded to in this thread, different people have different tendencies as far as money spending/lifestyles, but the general attitude on here regarding living expenses in NYC are a tad exaggerated, particularly when people say things like '160k is really not that much in NYC'

[moonman157]

Sorry, drunk and lazy, but is there a consensus on what NYU is worth if not sticker? With scholarship and personal savings specific for law school, I have about 1/3 of total COA paid for, which I thought wasn't bad until this thread. Nyc is my dream city and I will be gunning for biglaw regardless of where I go.

[smaug_]

Sorry, drunk and lazy, but is there a consensus on what NYU is worth if not sticker? With scholarship and personal savings specific for law school, I have about 1/3 of total COA paid for, which I thought wasn't bad until this thread. Nyc is my dream city and I will be gunning for biglaw regardless of where I go.

I'd do it. I don't know about others. It also largely depends on what your other options are.

[izy223]

Sorry, drunk and lazy, but is there a consensus on what NYU is worth if not sticker? With scholarship and personal savings specific for law school, I have about 1/3 of total COA paid for, which I thought wasn't bad until this thread. Nyc is my dream city and I will be gunning for biglaw regardless of where I go.

I'd do it. I don't know about others. It also largely depends on what you're other options are.

if your dead set on NY, ok with staying in biglaw and living semi frugally for 4-5 years after law school (meaning dont get a table in club every sat night) then i would say its worth it. (im in the same exact boat as you and I went to NYU)

I only met one 2l who struck out at OCI and he was bottom 10% doesn't interview well and has other circumstances which hurt him . PM me if you care to know what it is dont want to say it on the board.

But again I am not a disenfranchised 3L yet so as most ppl on this board will say my advice means shit


ETA: make a poll/ look at the Cornell thread about 40% of ppl in the cornel said cornel at sticker is worth it, NYU > Cornel. The ppl who comment are usually more likely to say dont go then the ppl who respond to polls

[thisiswater]

This question depends on your other options. If this is your best option, I think even if it means going $200k into debt, and despite its clear risks, an NYU law degree, assuming you are willing to work your ass off during law school and after, is a worthy investment.

I echo the sentiments of other users who regard a full ride or large scholarship at a lower T14 as a better option, though.

1. It seems closer to $300,000 of debt for many people.

2. Most people don't understand what biglaw is, they only see the salary. It seems like so much money to them, that they think they can do whatever it takes to earn the salary. They don't consider how little they will have to live on in NYC after paying debt and how limited their life may be.

3. Being prepared to work your ass off is not enough, be sure you understand the day to day grind and hours of biglaw. I feel that almost no 0LS understand this part of the equation. If you are a person who needs regular sleep or who doesn't have insanely high energy levels or who cant manage stress and pressure, big law will eat you up in a few years.

4. I am happy with biglaw and I like the work, but the great majority of associates in my department are miserable. Many of them just hate the lifestyle, and even start to hate law. Dont get me wrong, some people thrive in this work environment. You probably know already how you deal with no sleep and pressure. I mentioned in another thread that my record was a deal where I worked for 3 days straight with literally going home to change clothes. I can handle an all-nighter (protip: drink water!) but by the end of that I was ready to walk into walls. But I still had to churn out perfect and timely work for everyone. ( protip: you always want to control the draft of the documents, but that means you have more work than the other side.) Even then, I only had one night of sleep before going back at it hard. This is extreme, but, do you think you can handle it?

I guess I am saying that I don't buy this idea that law at sticker debt of hundreds of thousands of dollars is obviously anyone's best option if they have to get and keep biglaw. I think people need to investigate other careers and really learn about biglaw before they sign on the dotted line.

For some people it is fantastic. But that is a small number of people. Even of the small group of people that biglaw is fantastic for, the odds of making partner are small. Understand the job and don't just see dollar signs. Reality is that people don't go into law to get rich, though it is possible, it isn't a sure thing and it is one of the hardest ways to make money.

This is something I didn't understand until I started working as a client of BigLaw attorneys. I mean, last weekend 2 associates and a partner did 8-ish (i'll know for sure when I see the invoice) hours of work for me that they received on Friday evening after 6 NY time, and they had the answers to me by 10 AM NY time on Saturday. I'm sure I destroyed their night. I didn't mean to but it was what it was.

[Eco]

IMO NYU sticker is worth it. He will most likely get a good job that pays well. The loans will be bad but they are payable over time. As his legal career develops, the loan payments become a part of his monthly expenses, just like cable and internet (but much more, lol). Even the President of the United States took 8 years to pay off his loans. It's ultimately worth it because it's a long-term investment, like a house, that has great, great value. If he was asking whether sticker at GW or another top-school-but-sub-t10 law school, I would say yes, not worth it- but this is NYU we're talking about.

[BerkeleyBear]

IMO NYU sticker is worth it. He will most likely get a good job that pays well. The loans will be bad but they are payable over time. As his legal career develops, the loan payments become a part of his monthly expenses, just like cable and internet (but much more, lol). Even the President of the United States took 8 years to pay off his loans. It's ultimately worth it because it's a long-term investment, like a house, that has great, great value. If he was asking whether sticker at GW or another top-school-but-sub-t10 law school, I would say yes, not worth it- but this is NYU we're talking about.

Most likely getting a good job that pays well isn't really the problem. It's more problematic that at sticker you'd have to get a job that would enable you to pay off nearly 300K of debt and keep it for a while. The average lifespan for someone's career in biglaw is what? 3 years? The odds aren't in OP's favor.

The POTUS exemplifies how fiscally irresponsible most shitboomers are. Occidental Columbia Harvard LS
I think Obama carries many great qualities but taking 8 years to pay off his debt shouldn't comfort or impress anyone.

At first I was going to at your comparison of a lawl degree to a house. But maybe you're right. Both could be a great long-term investment but most likely won't.

[NYstate]

IMO NYU sticker is worth it. He will most likely get a good job that pays well. The loans will be bad but they are payable over time. As his legal career develops, the loan payments become a part of his monthly expenses, just like cable and internet (but much more, lol). Even the President of the United States took 8 years to pay off his loans. It's ultimately worth it because it's a long-term investment, like a house, that has great, great value. If he was asking whether sticker at GW or another top-school-but-sub-t10 law school, I would say yes, not worth it- but this is NYU we're talking about.

Yes it is that " most likely" part that is the question everyone has to resolve for themselves. I can't help but think of the NYU grad who got Lathamed from his biglaw firm and had never worked in law since, not for lack of trying. He had to move back to Alabama to live with his family. He has that website constitutional daily.

I know it is just one anecdote. But you aren't going to find many T6 grads publicly telling their stories of unemployment. So I agree that "most likely" is a way to look at it.